I will probably send this to infso-desk@cec.eu.int in a few days, but I'd appreciate comments sooner, if you have them. This affects free software's ability to display and use interactive digital television services, such as Linux-based PVRs.
I note with interest the publication of "Interactive TV : Commission reiterates its support for open and interoperable standards, but says implementation should not be made legally binding" at http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/04/1012&f...
Please note that I don't really understand what this support entails, if it does not (for example) require public-funded broadcasters to implement an open interactive TV platform before any closed one. In the UK, the BBC has interactive TV on DVB-T which I think might be MHP-based (I can't receive it, being outside the coverage area), but the DVB-S domestic service on Astra2 uses the dominant proprietary Sky/OpenTV platform. The BBC hasn't even implemented a full DVB-SI EIT (7-day electronic programme guide) or DVB-TXT (teletext) on DVB-S, as I mentioned in http://mjr.towers.org.uk/blog/2004-5.html#bbcdsatstandards@2004-5.mjr.dsl.pi... and elsewhere, so users wanting programmable Personal Video Recorders (PVRs) are almost forced to purchase Sky's + system instead of a DVB-standard set. Basic DVB-S equipment retails from around 80 pounds sterling, 33% cheaper than Sky, but has very little market share, as far as I can tell.
For comparison, I believe German broadcasters - ARD, ZDF and various regional chains - broadcast DVB-TXT, fuller DVB-SI EIT and are developing MHP-based interactive services. Further, experience during visits to Germany suggests there is competition between manufacturers and retailers, both broadcaster-backed (Premiere, for example) and independent.
Will the commission act against the UK Department of Culture, Media and Sport's failure to ensure the BBC supports open and interoperable standards for its DVB-S services, under Article 18 of Directive 2002/21/EC?
On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 15:43 +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
I note with interest the publication of "Interactive TV : Commission reiterates its support for open and interoperable standards, but says implementation should not be made legally binding"
Market forces are a crock for standards.
Please note that I don't really understand what this support entails, if it does not (for example) require public-funded broadcasters to implement an open interactive TV platform before any closed one. In the UK, the BBC has interactive TV on DVB-T which I think might be MHP-based (I can't receive it, being outside the coverage area), but the DVB-S domestic service on Astra2 uses the dominant proprietary Sky/OpenTV platform. The BBC hasn't even implemented a full DVB-SI EIT (7-day electronic programme guide) or DVB-TXT (teletext) on DVB-S, as I mentioned in http://mjr.towers.org.uk/blog/2004-5.html#bbcdsatstandards@2004-5.mjr.dsl.pi... and elsewhere, so users wanting programmable Personal Video Recorders (PVRs) are almost forced to purchase Sky's + system instead of a DVB-standard set.
I think you probably ought to talk to some BBC engineers before saying too much bad stuff about them. I have little idea about interactive TV, but I did think the BBC used an open standard (maybe MHEG though). As for the 7-day EPG, I'm fairly sure that is being broadcast in Wales and Crystal Palace, and that the problem is one of end-user hardware, not willingness to support standards. That would mean that two 7day EPGs would be being broadcast - 4TV (proprietary) and the new 7day (actually 8, IIRC) SI. Or are you saying that the full DVB-SI they're testing is proprietary?
I don't think the problem is initially that the BBC or other public broadcasters don't want to make the information available, or not use open standards, but that hardware people use is terrible. The list of PVRs which cope with 7day EPG is *3*, according to http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/uknews/-freeview_epg_london.htm. I don't know of any DVRs which cope with it. I seem to remember stories of people's units going titsup occasionally with over-air updates, which is why manufacturers are fairly reticent about making new changes.
I don't have much idea about the constraints the BBC works within on DVB-S, but I know some Globecast uplink engineers who probably would know. I will try asking if you're interested in the answer, but I would imagine it will be something along the lines of "downlink don't support it after recoding" or similar.
Basic DVB-S equipment retails from around 80 pounds sterling,
£40-50 if you know where to look. TopUpTV are coming out with some new deal at some point soon with Argos to shift DVB equipment at £20 or something ridiculous too, IIRC.
Will the commission act against the UK Department of Culture, Media and Sport's failure to ensure the BBC supports open and interoperable standards for its DVB-S services, under Article 18 of Directive 2002/21/EC?
It's possibly more a question for those making the equipment not adhering to broadcast standards, rather than the BBC not wanting to support open/interoperable standards. I know from past experience too that there are often quite sensible reasons that they don't do something "to standards", but they will also avoid proprietary tech when they can (Dirac being a good case in point, I think). Whether or not it's possible to regulate the receiver hardware to ensure it supports open standards, I don't know, I suspect the authorities would be reticent to try though. But, in summary, I don't think the problem would really be the broadcasters, but the manufacturers.
Cheers,
Alex.
On 2004-08-11 16:13:25 +0100 Alex Hudson home@alexhudson.com wrote:
I think you probably ought to talk to some BBC engineers before saying too much bad stuff about them.
I have, often described in my /blog/ site, but they have said they won't write to me much any more.
I have little idea about interactive TV, but I did think the BBC used an open standard (maybe MHEG though).
I don't have much idea apart from what I've read in specs, as I don't have an interactive TV receiver. I think you may be right about the BBC using an open standard, but only for DVB-T (Freeview) and not DVB-S (Astra 2 Satellite).
[...] 7-day EPG [...] the problem is one of end-user hardware, not willingness to support standards.
I have hardware which works with the ARD services. I believe they are DVB-SI EIT and BBC isn't.
That would mean that two 7day EPGs would be being broadcast - 4TV (proprietary) and the new 7day (actually 8, IIRC) SI. Or are you saying that the full DVB-SI they're testing is proprietary?
I'm saying they're not testing full DVB-SI on the Astra 2 satellite. What's 4TV?
[...] The list of PVRs which cope with 7day EPG is *3*, according to
I reckon it's at least 16, based on the number registered with the DVB project (deducting the two Open TV ones from: wget -q -O- 'http://www.dvb.org/index.php?id=103&sid=28' | grep -ic record).
Of course, the standards support should mean you can currently make a reasonable attempt at a DIY Freeview recorder, mythtv-style.
I don't know of any DVRs which cope with it.
What's a DVR?
[engineers] I will try asking if you're interested in the answer
I am, especially if it's soon enough to affect this. Do BBC use Globecast uplinks?
Basic DVB-S equipment retails from around 80 pounds sterling,
£40-50 if you know where to look.
I wasn't counting popping to France. Beyond that, I don't know how to match your price for a complete system. The 80 pounds retail is based on the forthcoming Lidl offer news:nbahh0hpel2ldt973n84rsrt5829sj7dln@4ax.com, which will probably be a very small stock.
It's possibly more a question for those making the equipment not adhering to broadcast standards, rather than the BBC not wanting to support open/interoperable standards.
Possibly. I don't see how I can use this on the manufacturers, though. Can you? I think the BBC must create the demand by supporting the standards first.
On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 16:48 +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
I think you probably ought to talk to some BBC engineers before saying too much bad stuff about them.
I have, often described in my /blog/ site, but they have said they won't write to me much any more.
Ah, ok. Sorry, I've not been watching anything you've written about this.
[...] 7-day EPG [...] the problem is one of end-user hardware, not willingness to support standards.
I have hardware which works with the ARD services. I believe they are DVB-SI EIT and BBC isn't.
I have no idea what DVB-s stuff works with the full SI information, but certainly a lot of DVB equipment won't, which is why they are doing such extensive (slow) testing.
I'm saying they're not testing full DVB-SI on the Astra 2 satellite.
Ah, I didn't realise you were talking solely about DSAT. As far as I know, provision of EPG over DSAT is out of the control of the Beeb - certainly on BSkyB CA it was, I don't see any reason why it would be in their remit now. I'm also not sure how DVB-s multiplexes; with -t I think the EPG is a full broadcast per-multiplex. I doubt there would be enough bandwidth to do that across the -s system, due to the sheer number of channels, but I guess that's speculation.
What's 4TV?
Providers of a proprietary EPG via DVB-t.
I don't know of any DVRs which cope with it.
What's a DVR?
A recorder with a digital tuner, rather than analogue - i.e., something which saves the broadcast directly. Most free software VRs are PVRs, although you can get digital tuners.
[engineers] I will try asking if you're interested in the answer
I am, especially if it's soon enough to affect this. Do BBC use Globecast uplinks?
Probably, but it's irrelevant for this (BBC use uplinks for many, many things). The Astra uplink would be sent by the BBC themselves, but the Globecast bods I know will also be uplinking to Astra so would probably have a good idea about the EPG situation.
Possibly. I don't see how I can use this on the manufacturers, though. Can you? I think the BBC must create the demand by supporting the standards first
Chicken and egg, though. The BBC do tend to supply before the demand is there as a rule, although EPGs might be a touchy area.
Cheers,
Alex.
On 2004-08-11 17:19:57 +0100 Alex Hudson home@alexhudson.com wrote:
I have no idea what DVB-s stuff works with the full SI information, but certainly a lot of DVB equipment won't, which is why they are doing such extensive (slow) testing.
I wonder how on Earth it manages to break DVB-compliant sets. I thought they just ignored bits they didn't understand, like html theory.
I'm saying they're not testing full DVB-SI on the Astra 2 satellite.
[...] As far as I know, provision of EPG over DSAT is out of the control of the Beeb - certainly on BSkyB CA it was, I don't see any reason why it would be in their remit now.
In the extreme, it's up to the BBC how they get to the dishes. It should be possible for BBC to buy directly from Astra or Eutelsat (who parked Eurobird just 0.3 degrees away) if they are currently going via Sky. That might need to wait ages for another satellite at 28 east, if Sky have everyone tied down for now, even blocking the unused transponders. It would be nice to know the hold-up here, if nothing else.
I'm also not sure how DVB-s multiplexes; with -t I think the EPG is a full broadcast per-multiplex.
I think it only requires broadcast-per-transponder on satellite, although you can do more if you want, as far as I can tell from the way it behaves on the German system. The 7-day table only usually fills when the decoder is tuned to the station's transponder for a while. If you tune to a "close friend" (say rbb for ARD) then it may fill a bit, but slowly.
Chicken and egg, though. The BBC do tend to supply before the demand is there as a rule, although EPGs might be a touchy area.
Why might it be touchy?