Hi all,
I'm currently looking at replacing my X220 tablet and hoping to choose something new without spending too much time.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
1. weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
2. screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for some applications
3. battery - it is not like new any more
Looking around, though, if I choose a current model laptop (Lenovo or otherwise) it appears there is something of a minefield:
- am I going to run into Secure Boot issues? I've met other people at events recently who had new laptops and were struggling to get into the BIOS and disable Secure Boot.
- Windows included - can anybody give any tips on how to buy without paying the Windows tax?
- dongles - many of them favor dongles/expansion ports these days, some of these dongles only work with the PSU, will the total weight with PSU and dongle really be less than my current laptop?
Are there any specific models that anybody would recommend in the ultraportable form-factor (e.g. under i7, 16GB or more, 1.5kg, 12.5" - 14", suitable for use on small spaces such as on trains and airplanes)?
Has anybody tried the 2017 models of the X1 Carbon or X270 with any Linux distribution?
Regards,
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
Like you I'm also on the lookout for a replacement, especially for my dayjob as a developer. I need decent performance to run all the Docker containers with JVM processes, combined with the battery-life that can last me a large part of a day filled with meetings.
For personal usage my Librecore T400 should suffice for about 2 more years.
Lenovo is the brand I like, because of their build quality and their trackpoint. Going by the Arch wiki, running GNU/Linux on them should work if you settle for some binary blobs. Something like a T470p perhaps?
Dell is now selling multiple laptops with GNU/Linux preinstalled, although I'm not sure how many blobs they require. A friend of mine uses a recent XPS 13 and is very pleased with it, both the hardware and the distibution.
Tuxedo (linux-onlineshop.de), System76 and Entroware have recently come out with the 13" alu-cased laptop. Of these three vendors I get the sense that System76 is working upstream directly to get their hardware supported, and Entroware is doing so via the Ubuntu-Mate distro. I don't know much about the reputation of Tuxedo.
Purism has my preference at this moment, mostly because they have crippled the Intel ME for their models. The Librem 13 is similar to the models shipped by the vendors named in the above paragraph, but with a slightly different CPU. They seem to only laptop vendor taking part in the deblobbing proces. Their Librem 13 still contains some blobs, but they can do less harm. More on the deblobbing process can be found at: https://github.com/corna/me_cleaner/wiki/How-does-it-work%3F The Dutch Fellow Kevin (the_unconventional@) has more detailed knowledge on the state of blobs.
I hope others can chip in on this topic, so that I too can make a more educated decision in the near future.
Kind regards, Nico
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately. My next machine will be a Purism Librem, I think. But I've been a life-long fan of ThinkPads. I currently have a W550s, an X250, and an X1 Carbon. Cannot recommend enough.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better
and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications
X270 will solve this nicely. So will the X1 Carbon. I have two machines with "HiDPI" (the W and the X1 Carbon) and it's very well supported by both GNOME and KDE.
- battery - it is not like new any more
The X270 has a replaceable second battery, so you can carry around as many as you need.
Looking around, though, if I choose a current model laptop (Lenovo or otherwise) it appears there is something of a minefield:
- am I going to run into Secure Boot issues? I've met other people at
events recently who had new laptops and were struggling to get into the BIOS and disable Secure Boot.
I haven't had any issues with this.
- Windows included - can anybody give any tips on how to buy without
paying the Windows tax?
- dongles - many of them favor dongles/expansion ports these days, some
of these dongles only work with the PSU, will the total weight with PSU and dongle really be less than my current laptop?
The X1 Carbon comes with an ethernet dongle, and that's annoying.
Are there any specific models that anybody would recommend in the ultraportable form-factor (e.g. under i7, 16GB or more, 1.5kg, 12.5" - 14", suitable for use on small spaces such as on trains and airplanes)?
If I wasn't nearly certain my next machine would be a Librem, I'd be getting an X270.
Has anybody tried the 2017 models of the X1 Carbon or X270 with any Linux distribution?
I have more than one colleague with X1 Carbon from 2017 (on is an X1 Yoga), and one with an X270. Both claim that support is great. I don't know which distributions they run, but I suspect Ubuntu.
Good luck!
-Steven
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Dear all,
I'd like to start by warning against purchasing any product from Purism. They have consistently misled and profited off the backs of the free software movement, without giving much back at all. Their marketing material made many high claims - that they would be able to run Coreboot, they were working towards getting Libreboot on the device. This was false. They made claims that they were working towards convincing Intel to free its infamous management engine (something even Google were unable to do for its Chromebooks). Finally, when Coreboot was actually ported (by a Google employee on their lunch breaks, apparently), it ran with blobs that performed all the initialization code. I think it is not unreasonable to describe what they did as a scam. At any rate it is an overpriced generic laptop.
I do recommend getting a device running Coreboot, though. It is an important free software project, and you won't have trouble with manufacturers restricting you, e.g. the secure boot issues mentioned, or whitelists of wireless hardware. The X230 runs Coreboot, and there are interesting things that one can do with it. However, if you are not going to use this, then a better route might be to get a device that ships without Windows or with something like Ubuntu out of the box. An example of this is the Dell XPS laptops, which are reasonably well made, although not as configurable. However, they are expensive. Other people I know have had reasonable results with the newest Thinkpads, although, one should note, they use whitelists for network hardware (Dell may too, but I am not sure), and they are slowly becoming less configurable, e.g. they no longer have dial-up, it's harder to replace the memory, and they no longer have features such as dial-up (tongue in cheek, but it's an example). They still perform well and are somewhat configurable, though. Other things to watch out for are the use of discrete graphics - often newer NVidia cards are used, which may or may not work well with Nouveau, and are reasonably power-hungry.
Regards, Duncan
On 30.04.2017 17:00, Steven R. Baker wrote:
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately. My next machine will be a Purism Librem, I think. But I've been a life-long fan of ThinkPads. I currently have a W550s, an X250, and an X1 Carbon. Cannot recommend enough.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the
better and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications
X270 will solve this nicely. So will the X1 Carbon. I have two machines with "HiDPI" (the W and the X1 Carbon) and it's very well supported by both GNOME and KDE.
- battery - it is not like new any more
The X270 has a replaceable second battery, so you can carry around as many as you need.
Looking around, though, if I choose a current model laptop (Lenovo or otherwise) it appears there is something of a minefield:
- am I going to run into Secure Boot issues? I've met other people at
events recently who had new laptops and were struggling to get into the BIOS and disable Secure Boot.
I haven't had any issues with this.
- Windows included - can anybody give any tips on how to buy without
paying the Windows tax?
- dongles - many of them favor dongles/expansion ports these days,
some of these dongles only work with the PSU, will the total weight with PSU and dongle really be less than my current laptop?
The X1 Carbon comes with an ethernet dongle, and that's annoying.
Are there any specific models that anybody would recommend in the ultraportable form-factor (e.g. under i7, 16GB or more, 1.5kg, 12.5" - 14", suitable for use on small spaces such as on trains and airplanes)?
If I wasn't nearly certain my next machine would be a Librem, I'd be getting an X270.
Has anybody tried the 2017 models of the X1 Carbon or X270 with any Linux distribution?
I have more than one colleague with X1 Carbon from 2017 (on is an X1 Yoga), and one with an X270. Both claim that support is great. I don't know which distributions they run, but I suspect Ubuntu.
Good luck!
-Steven
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
I'd like to start by warning against purchasing any product from Purism. They have consistently misled and profited off the backs of the free software movement, without giving much back at all. Their marketing material made many high claims - that they would be able to run Coreboot, they were working towards getting Libreboot on the device. This was false. They made claims that they were working towards convincing Intel to free its infamous management engine (something even Google were unable to do for its Chromebooks). Finally, when Coreboot was actually ported (by a Google employee on their lunch breaks, apparently), it ran with blobs that performed all the initialization code. I think it is not unreasonable to describe what they did as a scam. At any rate it is an overpriced generic laptop.
Thanks for this. I was taking them at their word without looking into it. I appreciate the correction.
-Steven
I do recommend getting a device running Coreboot, though. It is an important free software project, and you won't have trouble with manufacturers restricting you, e.g. the secure boot issues mentioned, or whitelists of wireless hardware. The X230 runs Coreboot, and there are interesting things that one can do with it. However, if you are not going to use this, then a better route might be to get a device that ships without Windows or with something like Ubuntu out of the box. An example of this is the Dell XPS laptops, which are reasonably well made, although not as configurable. However, they are expensive. Other people I know have had reasonable results with the newest Thinkpads, although, one should note, they use whitelists for network hardware (Dell may too, but I am not sure), and they are slowly becoming less configurable, e.g. they no longer have dial-up, it's harder to replace the memory, and they no longer have features such as dial-up (tongue in cheek, but it's an example). They still perform well and are somewhat configurable, though. Other things to watch out for are the use of discrete graphics - often newer NVidia cards are used, which may or may not work well with Nouveau, and are reasonably power-hungry.
Regards, Duncan
On 30.04.2017 17:00, Steven R. Baker wrote:
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately. My next machine will be a Purism Librem, I think. But I've been a life-long fan of ThinkPads. I currently have a W550s, an X250, and an X1 Carbon. Cannot recommend enough.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better
and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications
X270 will solve this nicely. So will the X1 Carbon. I have two machines with "HiDPI" (the W and the X1 Carbon) and it's very well supported by both GNOME and KDE.
- battery - it is not like new any more
The X270 has a replaceable second battery, so you can carry around as many as you need.
Looking around, though, if I choose a current model laptop (Lenovo or otherwise) it appears there is something of a minefield:
- am I going to run into Secure Boot issues? I've met other people at
events recently who had new laptops and were struggling to get into the BIOS and disable Secure Boot.
I haven't had any issues with this.
- Windows included - can anybody give any tips on how to buy without
paying the Windows tax?
- dongles - many of them favor dongles/expansion ports these days, some
of these dongles only work with the PSU, will the total weight with PSU and dongle really be less than my current laptop?
The X1 Carbon comes with an ethernet dongle, and that's annoying.
Are there any specific models that anybody would recommend in the ultraportable form-factor (e.g. under i7, 16GB or more, 1.5kg, 12.5" - 14", suitable for use on small spaces such as on trains and airplanes)?
If I wasn't nearly certain my next machine would be a Librem, I'd be getting an X270.
Has anybody tried the 2017 models of the X1 Carbon or X270 with any Linux distribution?
I have more than one colleague with X1 Carbon from 2017 (on is an X1 Yoga), and one with an X270. Both claim that support is great. I don't know which distributions they run, but I suspect Ubuntu.
Good luck!
-Steven
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
El 30 de abril de 2017 17:11:09 GMT+01:00, "Steven R. Baker" steven@stevenrbaker.com escribió:
I'd like to start by warning against purchasing any product from Purism. They have consistently misled and profited off the backs of the free software movement, without giving much back at all. Their marketing material made many high claims - that they would be able to run Coreboot, they were working towards getting Libreboot on the device. This was false. They made claims that they were working towards convincing Intel to free its infamous management engine (something even Google were unable to do for its Chromebooks). Finally, when Coreboot was actually ported (by a Google employee on their lunch breaks, apparently), it ran with blobs that performed all the initialization code. I think it is not unreasonable to describe what they did as a scam. At any rate it is an overpriced generic
laptop.
Thanks for this. I was taking them at their word without looking into it. I appreciate the correction.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned https://minifree.org/
That is where my next laptop is comming from.
-- -- Andres (he/him/his) Ham United Group Richmond Makerlabs
On 30/04/17 17:00, Steven R. Baker wrote:
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately. My next machine will be a Purism Librem, I think. But I've been a life-long fan of ThinkPads. I currently have a W550s, an X250, and an X1 Carbon. Cannot recommend enough.
I've also been on ThinkPad for more than 10 years. I'm comfortable with servicing them and I'm happy with their TrackPoint.
As long as other options such as the Purism are not 100% free, I would not favor them completely over another ThinkPad.
Even if some of the vPro stuff is hard to avoid, can ThinkPad be ordered without vPro or can it be sufficiently disabled?
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better
and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications
X270 will solve this nicely. So will the X1 Carbon. I have two machines with "HiDPI" (the W and the X1 Carbon) and it's very well supported by both GNOME and KDE.
What were the factors for you in choosing between X1 Carbon 2017 and the X270? I noticed you preferred X270.
The older X1 Carbons were a bit bigger but now they have made it smaller by reducing the edge around the screen it is very tempting for me.
One particular concern I have is that there is nothing with quad core in the ultraportable market but I guess I just have to live with that if I want long battery life. Compiling projects like reSIProcate benefits from extra cores.
- battery - it is not like new any more
The X270 has a replaceable second battery, so you can carry around as many as you need.
In 2015 I bought a new battery for the X220 Tablet but I've found that "new" batteries are never as good as when the laptop is new. When you buy a "new" battery for an old laptop, there is every chance the battery has been sitting in a warehouse for 3-4 years. So to get a real new battery experience, the only option is usually buying a current model laptop.
Regards,
Daniel
Am 30.04.2017 um 20:05 schrieb Daniel Pocock:
In 2015 I bought a new battery for the X220 Tablet but I've found that "new" batteries are never as good as when the laptop is new. When you buy a "new" battery for an old laptop, there is every chance the battery has been sitting in a warehouse for 3-4 years. So to get a real new battery experience, the only option is usually buying a current model laptop.
Me too. But I got a really good one. (It looks even better than the original battery when the latter was new, probably because Linux power saving got better in the meantime. Or because I'm comparing Ubuntu to Arch.)
Regards, Franz
On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 08:05:39PM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
Even if some of the vPro stuff is hard to avoid, can ThinkPad be ordered without vPro or can it be sufficiently disabled?
Pick a network card without vPro support. I had to go with Broadcom instead of Intel to avoid vPro, which I am not totally happy about, but it sucks less than vPro.
Cheers,
On 30/04/17 20:05, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 30/04/17 17:00, Steven R. Baker wrote:
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately. My next machine will be a Purism Librem, I think. But I've been a life-long fan of ThinkPads. I currently have a W550s, an X250, and an X1 Carbon. Cannot recommend enough.
I've also been on ThinkPad for more than 10 years. I'm comfortable with servicing them and I'm happy with their TrackPoint.
As long as other options such as the Purism are not 100% free, I would not favor them completely over another ThinkPad.
Even if some of the vPro stuff is hard to avoid, can ThinkPad be ordered without vPro or can it be sufficiently disabled?
I don't know about this.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better
and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications
X270 will solve this nicely. So will the X1 Carbon. I have two machines with "HiDPI" (the W and the X1 Carbon) and it's very well supported by both GNOME and KDE.
What were the factors for you in choosing between X1 Carbon 2017 and the X270? I noticed you preferred X270.
The older X1 Carbons were a bit bigger but now they have made it smaller by reducing the edge around the screen it is very tempting for me.
First, the subjective: the X1 Carbon doesn't feel like a real ThinkPad. If you were comparing it to an Apple laptop or something, it compares favourably. It's beautiful, strong, comfortable, etc. It really is a lovely machine. But I prefer the more traditional ThinkPads. I'm sure I'm just old and cranky.
Objectively: the removable second battery is a big winner for me, and the smaller footprint of the X270 means it fits better in my favourite bag. It's also more comfortable on the tiny tables on our local trains (I'm in Skåne, in southern Sweden) and on airplanes. Finally, I like the ultradock better than the "USB hub that's called a dock". I'm not sure if that's subjective, or objective: but iit does mean that the additional screen size doesn't matter to me. I have a 40" 4K display at home, and at work a 32" WQHD display and I use it "like a desktop" in both places.
I will reiterate about trains + planes: the 12.5" screen really shines here, because it's shorter than the 14" on the X1 Carbon. I can open the X250 comfortably, without touching the reclined seat in front of me on a plane. And it fits at all on the tiny tray on the local trains. The X1 Carbon often can't open to 90°, let alone past it, on planes, and it doesn't really fit on the tiny tray on the local trains.
One particular concern I have is that there is nothing with quad core in the ultraportable market but I guess I just have to live with that if I want long battery life. Compiling projects like reSIProcate benefits from extra cores.
At my day job I work on a graph database, which is about a million lines of code in Java and Scala. That's why I opted for the W550s with 32G (I have the loadedest model with every option; it wasn't my bank account). But when I was using the X250 with only 8G of RAM before I got the W, it was a mild annoyance. Incremental compilation and the ability to spin up an AWS instance (on my employers' dime, of course) to do the build for me really helped.
When I use the X250 for work related things, and I have to wait for a compile I grab a coffee and don't even think about how much faster the W is. When I use the W550s and pick it up to put it in my bag, my back aches and I wish I had just got an X260 or whatever was current when I ordered the W. (Or just upped the RAM in the 250, but my employer bought it, and the budget was unlimited.)
If you're going to battery and portability, you have to sacrifice the speed, which you know. But my experience is that computers are "fast enough" now adays that going nuts really doesn't matter. Also, since you're moving from an X220, you won't know what you're missing anyhow. It'll be a welcome improvement. (Or not. I really don't notice speed differences anymore.)
- battery - it is not like new any more
The X270 has a replaceable second battery, so you can carry around as many as you need.
In 2015 I bought a new battery for the X220 Tablet but I've found that "new" batteries are never as good as when the laptop is new. When you buy a "new" battery for an old laptop, there is every chance the battery has been sitting in a warehouse for 3-4 years. So to get a real new battery experience, the only option is usually buying a current model laptop.
For me, the replaceable battery is more about "I can carry a spare in my bag" than "I can replace it when it dies completely." That said, battery technology keeps getting better. Anecdotally, I haven't experienced noticeable (although I'm sure it's measurable) degradation in the battery I got with the X250 two years ago.
-Steven
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Here is my suggestion: pinebook
https://www.pine64.org/?page_id=3707
My next laptop will not be a thick machine but a thin.
I will not have any personal data on it, I will use my own personal "cloud" aka my own self-hosted VPS. I am already doing this, so my data are on my server and I am ok with the experience. I am using a 5/6 years old laptop (dell xps 13) for business purposes.
With something like the above, persistent (personal) data (like ssh or VPN keys) will be only on an encrypted USB drive. Nowadays when traveling, I am afraid of someone sniffing my data from the airport (even that I use encryption on my disk) or that they will ask me to give them my laptop opened to read my emails (true scenario).
So for my next laptop I want to be more portable, light as a feather and with no data on it. Using my own cloud and with an encrypted USB stick to store keys or any personal data. Everything else will be on my desktop or on my "cloud".
On 04/30/2017 09:59 PM, Steven R. Baker wrote:
On 30/04/17 20:05, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 30/04/17 17:00, Steven R. Baker wrote:
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately. My next machine will be a Purism Librem, I think. But I've been a life-long fan of ThinkPads. I currently have a W550s, an X250, and an X1 Carbon. Cannot recommend enough.
I've also been on ThinkPad for more than 10 years. I'm comfortable with servicing them and I'm happy with their TrackPoint.
As long as other options such as the Purism are not 100% free, I would not favor them completely over another ThinkPad.
Even if some of the vPro stuff is hard to avoid, can ThinkPad be ordered without vPro or can it be sufficiently disabled?
I don't know about this.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better
and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications
X270 will solve this nicely. So will the X1 Carbon. I have two machines with "HiDPI" (the W and the X1 Carbon) and it's very well supported by both GNOME and KDE.
What were the factors for you in choosing between X1 Carbon 2017 and the X270? I noticed you preferred X270.
The older X1 Carbons were a bit bigger but now they have made it smaller by reducing the edge around the screen it is very tempting for me.
First, the subjective: the X1 Carbon doesn't feel like a real ThinkPad. If you were comparing it to an Apple laptop or something, it compares favourably. It's beautiful, strong, comfortable, etc. It really is a lovely machine. But I prefer the more traditional ThinkPads. I'm sure I'm just old and cranky.
Objectively: the removable second battery is a big winner for me, and the smaller footprint of the X270 means it fits better in my favourite bag. It's also more comfortable on the tiny tables on our local trains (I'm in Skåne, in southern Sweden) and on airplanes. Finally, I like the ultradock better than the "USB hub that's called a dock". I'm not sure if that's subjective, or objective: but iit does mean that the additional screen size doesn't matter to me. I have a 40" 4K display at home, and at work a 32" WQHD display and I use it "like a desktop" in both places.
I will reiterate about trains + planes: the 12.5" screen really shines here, because it's shorter than the 14" on the X1 Carbon. I can open the X250 comfortably, without touching the reclined seat in front of me on a plane. And it fits at all on the tiny tray on the local trains. The X1 Carbon often can't open to 90°, let alone past it, on planes, and it doesn't really fit on the tiny tray on the local trains.
One particular concern I have is that there is nothing with quad core in the ultraportable market but I guess I just have to live with that if I want long battery life. Compiling projects like reSIProcate benefits from extra cores.
At my day job I work on a graph database, which is about a million lines of code in Java and Scala. That's why I opted for the W550s with 32G (I have the loadedest model with every option; it wasn't my bank account). But when I was using the X250 with only 8G of RAM before I got the W, it was a mild annoyance. Incremental compilation and the ability to spin up an AWS instance (on my employers' dime, of course) to do the build for me really helped.
When I use the X250 for work related things, and I have to wait for a compile I grab a coffee and don't even think about how much faster the W is. When I use the W550s and pick it up to put it in my bag, my back aches and I wish I had just got an X260 or whatever was current when I ordered the W. (Or just upped the RAM in the 250, but my employer bought it, and the budget was unlimited.)
If you're going to battery and portability, you have to sacrifice the speed, which you know. But my experience is that computers are "fast enough" now adays that going nuts really doesn't matter. Also, since you're moving from an X220, you won't know what you're missing anyhow. It'll be a welcome improvement. (Or not. I really don't notice speed differences anymore.)
- battery - it is not like new any more
The X270 has a replaceable second battery, so you can carry around as many as you need.
In 2015 I bought a new battery for the X220 Tablet but I've found that "new" batteries are never as good as when the laptop is new. When you buy a "new" battery for an old laptop, there is every chance the battery has been sitting in a warehouse for 3-4 years. So to get a real new battery experience, the only option is usually buying a current model laptop.
For me, the replaceable battery is more about "I can carry a spare in my bag" than "I can replace it when it dies completely." That said, battery technology keeps getting better. Anecdotally, I haven't experienced noticeable (although I'm sure it's measurable) degradation in the battery I got with the X250 two years ago.
-Steven
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
On 30/04/17 20:59, Steven R. Baker wrote:
On 30/04/17 20:05, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 30/04/17 17:00, Steven R. Baker wrote:
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately. My next machine will be a Purism Librem, I think. But I've been a life-long fan of ThinkPads. I currently have a W550s, an X250, and an X1 Carbon. Cannot recommend enough.
I've also been on ThinkPad for more than 10 years. I'm comfortable with servicing them and I'm happy with their TrackPoint.
As long as other options such as the Purism are not 100% free, I would not favor them completely over another ThinkPad.
Even if some of the vPro stuff is hard to avoid, can ThinkPad be ordered without vPro or can it be sufficiently disabled?
I don't know about this.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better
and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications
X270 will solve this nicely. So will the X1 Carbon. I have two machines with "HiDPI" (the W and the X1 Carbon) and it's very well supported by both GNOME and KDE.
What were the factors for you in choosing between X1 Carbon 2017 and the X270? I noticed you preferred X270.
The older X1 Carbons were a bit bigger but now they have made it smaller by reducing the edge around the screen it is very tempting for me.
First, the subjective: the X1 Carbon doesn't feel like a real ThinkPad. If you were comparing it to an Apple laptop or something, it compares favourably. It's beautiful, strong, comfortable, etc. It really is a lovely machine. But I prefer the more traditional ThinkPads. I'm sure I'm just old and cranky.
In all fairness, I think that is why they have kept the X2x0 series going in parallel with the X1, they know it is a bit different and they are giving people the choice.
The fact it has a TrackPoint still makes it partially a ThinkPad though.
Objectively: the removable second battery is a big winner for me, and the smaller footprint of the X270 means it fits better in my favourite bag. It's also more comfortable on the tiny tables on our local trains (I'm in Skåne, in southern Sweden) and on airplanes. Finally, I like the ultradock better than the "USB hub that's called a dock". I'm not sure if that's subjective, or objective: but iit does mean that the additional screen size doesn't matter to me. I have a 40" 4K display at home, and at work a 32" WQHD display and I use it "like a desktop" in both places.
The 2017 model X1 Carbon is apparently 8% smaller than the previous X1 model, so a lot closer in size to the X270. Have you had a chance to see one and compare it?
The marketing says they have kept the same 14" screen but reduced the border around the screen.
Looking at the spec sheet, it appears to be 1cm wider than my X220 Tablet but about the same height.
I will reiterate about trains + planes: the 12.5" screen really shines here, because it's shorter than the 14" on the X1 Carbon. I can open the X250 comfortably, without touching the reclined seat in front of me on a plane. And it fits at all on the tiny tray on the local trains. The X1 Carbon often can't open to 90°, let alone past it, on planes, and it doesn't really fit on the tiny tray on the local trains.
Being able to fit into these spaces is an issue for me too.
One particular concern I have is that there is nothing with quad core in the ultraportable market but I guess I just have to live with that if I want long battery life. Compiling projects like reSIProcate benefits from extra cores.
At my day job I work on a graph database, which is about a million lines of code in Java and Scala. That's why I opted for the W550s with 32G (I have the loadedest model with every option; it wasn't my bank account). But when I was using the X250 with only 8G of RAM before I got the W, it was a mild annoyance. Incremental compilation and the ability to spin up an AWS instance (on my employers' dime, of course) to do the build for me really helped.
When I use the X250 for work related things, and I have to wait for a compile I grab a coffee and don't even think about how much faster the W is. When I use the W550s and pick it up to put it in my bag, my back aches and I wish I had just got an X260 or whatever was current when I ordered the W. (Or just upped the RAM in the 250, but my employer bought it, and the budget was unlimited.)
If you're going to battery and portability, you have to sacrifice the speed, which you know. But my experience is that computers are "fast enough" now adays that going nuts really doesn't matter. Also, since you're moving from an X220, you won't know what you're missing anyhow. It'll be a welcome improvement. (Or not. I really don't notice speed differences anymore.)
I can also compile on remote servers so I can manage without the extra cores, as much as I would like to have them. On my desk I typically have 24 cores.
Having something ultraportable for use on trains, planes and at conferences is essential for me. Even with the X220 Tablet, I don't always take it out with me because of the weight. The lighter my next laptop, the more frequently I will take it with me.
Regards,
Daniel
On 30/04/17 21:58, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 30/04/17 20:59, Steven R. Baker wrote:
On 30/04/17 20:05, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 30/04/17 17:00, Steven R. Baker wrote:
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately. My next machine will be a Purism Librem, I think. But I've been a life-long fan of ThinkPads. I currently have a W550s, an X250, and an X1 Carbon. Cannot recommend enough.
I've also been on ThinkPad for more than 10 years. I'm comfortable with servicing them and I'm happy with their TrackPoint.
As long as other options such as the Purism are not 100% free, I would not favor them completely over another ThinkPad.
Even if some of the vPro stuff is hard to avoid, can ThinkPad be ordered without vPro or can it be sufficiently disabled?
I don't know about this.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better
and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications
X270 will solve this nicely. So will the X1 Carbon. I have two machines with "HiDPI" (the W and the X1 Carbon) and it's very well supported by both GNOME and KDE.
What were the factors for you in choosing between X1 Carbon 2017 and the X270? I noticed you preferred X270.
The older X1 Carbons were a bit bigger but now they have made it smaller by reducing the edge around the screen it is very tempting for me.
First, the subjective: the X1 Carbon doesn't feel like a real ThinkPad. If you were comparing it to an Apple laptop or something, it compares favourably. It's beautiful, strong, comfortable, etc. It really is a lovely machine. But I prefer the more traditional ThinkPads. I'm sure I'm just old and cranky.
In all fairness, I think that is why they have kept the X2x0 series going in parallel with the X1, they know it is a bit different and they are giving people the choice.
The fact it has a TrackPoint still makes it partially a ThinkPad though.
Objectively: the removable second battery is a big winner for me, and the smaller footprint of the X270 means it fits better in my favourite bag. It's also more comfortable on the tiny tables on our local trains (I'm in Skåne, in southern Sweden) and on airplanes. Finally, I like the ultradock better than the "USB hub that's called a dock". I'm not sure if that's subjective, or objective: but iit does mean that the additional screen size doesn't matter to me. I have a 40" 4K display at home, and at work a 32" WQHD display and I use it "like a desktop" in both places.
The 2017 model X1 Carbon is apparently 8% smaller than the previous X1 model, so a lot closer in size to the X270. Have you had a chance to see one and compare it?
Ah, interesting. That certainly makes the X1 more compelling. I have only played with a Yoga, but didn't compare it, I was busy drawing with the stylus.
The marketing says they have kept the same 14" screen but reduced the border around the screen.
Looking at the spec sheet, it appears to be 1cm wider than my X220 Tablet but about the same height.
This is promising.
I will reiterate about trains + planes: the 12.5" screen really shines here, because it's shorter than the 14" on the X1 Carbon. I can open the X250 comfortably, without touching the reclined seat in front of me on a plane. And it fits at all on the tiny tray on the local trains. The X1 Carbon often can't open to 90°, let alone past it, on planes, and it doesn't really fit on the tiny tray on the local trains.
Being able to fit into these spaces is an issue for me too.
One particular concern I have is that there is nothing with quad core in the ultraportable market but I guess I just have to live with that if I want long battery life. Compiling projects like reSIProcate benefits from extra cores.
At my day job I work on a graph database, which is about a million lines of code in Java and Scala. That's why I opted for the W550s with 32G (I have the loadedest model with every option; it wasn't my bank account). But when I was using the X250 with only 8G of RAM before I got the W, it was a mild annoyance. Incremental compilation and the ability to spin up an AWS instance (on my employers' dime, of course) to do the build for me really helped.
When I use the X250 for work related things, and I have to wait for a compile I grab a coffee and don't even think about how much faster the W is. When I use the W550s and pick it up to put it in my bag, my back aches and I wish I had just got an X260 or whatever was current when I ordered the W. (Or just upped the RAM in the 250, but my employer bought it, and the budget was unlimited.)
If you're going to battery and portability, you have to sacrifice the speed, which you know. But my experience is that computers are "fast enough" now adays that going nuts really doesn't matter. Also, since you're moving from an X220, you won't know what you're missing anyhow. It'll be a welcome improvement. (Or not. I really don't notice speed differences anymore.)
I can also compile on remote servers so I can manage without the extra cores, as much as I would like to have them. On my desk I typically have 24 cores.
Having something ultraportable for use on trains, planes and at conferences is essential for me. Even with the X220 Tablet, I don't always take it out with me because of the weight. The lighter my next laptop, the more frequently I will take it with me.
I brought the W550s with me to FOSDEM. I think I brought it one day and regretted it.
-Steven
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Here is my suggestion: pinebook
https://www.pine64.org/?page_id=3707
My next laptop will not be a thick machine but a thin.
I will not have any personal data on it, I will use my own personal "cloud" aka my own self-hosted VPS. I am already doing this, so my data are on my server and I am ok with the experience. I am using a 5/6 years old laptop (dell xps 13) for business purposes.
With something like the above, persistent (personal) data (like ssh or VPN keys) will be only on an encrypted USB drive. Nowadays when traveling, I am afraid of someone sniffing my data from the airport (even that I use encryption on my disk) or that they will ask me to give them my laptop opened to read my emails (true scenario).
So for my next laptop I want to be more portable, light as a feather and with no data on it. Using my own cloud and with an encrypted USB stick to store keys or any personal data. Everything else will be on my desktop or on my "cloud".
On 04/30/2017 09:59 PM, Steven R. Baker wrote:
On 30/04/17 20:05, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 30/04/17 17:00, Steven R. Baker wrote:
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this lately. My next machine will be a Purism Librem, I think. But I've been a life-long fan of ThinkPads. I currently have a W550s, an X250, and an X1 Carbon. Cannot recommend enough.
I've also been on ThinkPad for more than 10 years. I'm comfortable with servicing them and I'm happy with their TrackPoint.
As long as other options such as the Purism are not 100% free, I would not favor them completely over another ThinkPad.
Even if some of the vPro stuff is hard to avoid, can ThinkPad be ordered without vPro or can it be sufficiently disabled?
I don't know about this.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better
and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications X270 will solve this nicely. So will the X1 Carbon. I have two machines with "HiDPI" (the W and the X1 Carbon) and it's very well supported by both GNOME and KDE.
What were the factors for you in choosing between X1 Carbon 2017 and the X270? I noticed you preferred X270.
The older X1 Carbons were a bit bigger but now they have made it smaller by reducing the edge around the screen it is very tempting for me.
First, the subjective: the X1 Carbon doesn't feel like a real ThinkPad. If you were comparing it to an Apple laptop or something, it compares favourably. It's beautiful, strong, comfortable, etc. It really is a lovely machine. But I prefer the more traditional ThinkPads. I'm sure I'm just old and cranky.
Objectively: the removable second battery is a big winner for me, and the smaller footprint of the X270 means it fits better in my favourite bag. It's also more comfortable on the tiny tables on our local trains (I'm in Skåne, in southern Sweden) and on airplanes. Finally, I like the ultradock better than the "USB hub that's called a dock". I'm not sure if that's subjective, or objective: but iit does mean that the additional screen size doesn't matter to me. I have a 40" 4K display at home, and at work a 32" WQHD display and I use it "like a desktop" in both places.
I will reiterate about trains + planes: the 12.5" screen really shines here, because it's shorter than the 14" on the X1 Carbon. I can open the X250 comfortably, without touching the reclined seat in front of me on a plane. And it fits at all on the tiny tray on the local trains. The X1 Carbon often can't open to 90°, let alone past it, on planes, and it doesn't really fit on the tiny tray on the local trains.
One particular concern I have is that there is nothing with quad core in the ultraportable market but I guess I just have to live with that if I want long battery life. Compiling projects like reSIProcate benefits from extra cores.
At my day job I work on a graph database, which is about a million lines of code in Java and Scala. That's why I opted for the W550s with 32G (I have the loadedest model with every option; it wasn't my bank account). But when I was using the X250 with only 8G of RAM before I got the W, it was a mild annoyance. Incremental compilation and the ability to spin up an AWS instance (on my employers' dime, of course) to do the build for me really helped.
When I use the X250 for work related things, and I have to wait for a compile I grab a coffee and don't even think about how much faster the W is. When I use the W550s and pick it up to put it in my bag, my back aches and I wish I had just got an X260 or whatever was current when I ordered the W. (Or just upped the RAM in the 250, but my employer bought it, and the budget was unlimited.)
If you're going to battery and portability, you have to sacrifice the speed, which you know. But my experience is that computers are "fast enough" now adays that going nuts really doesn't matter. Also, since you're moving from an X220, you won't know what you're missing anyhow. It'll be a welcome improvement. (Or not. I really don't notice speed differences anymore.)
- battery - it is not like new any more
The X270 has a replaceable second battery, so you can carry around as many as you need.
In 2015 I bought a new battery for the X220 Tablet but I've found that "new" batteries are never as good as when the laptop is new. When you buy a "new" battery for an old laptop, there is every chance the battery has been sitting in a warehouse for 3-4 years. So to get a real new battery experience, the only option is usually buying a current model laptop.
For me, the replaceable battery is more about "I can carry a spare in my bag" than "I can replace it when it dies completely." That said, battery technology keeps getting better. Anecdotally, I haven't experienced noticeable (although I'm sure it's measurable) degradation in the battery I got with the X250 two years ago.
-Steven
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
-- Evaggelos Balaskas PGP: '0x1c8968af8d2c621f' https://www.linkedin.com/in/evaggelosbalaskas
Evaggelos Balaskas PGP: '0x1c8968af8d2c621f' https://www.linkedin.com/in/evaggelosbalaskas
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 11:52:22AM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
- am I going to run into Secure Boot issues? I've met other people at
events recently who had new laptops and were struggling to get into the BIOS and disable Secure Boot.
I have a recent Thinkpad (T460p from 2016). Secure boot can be disabled or you can use it with your own keys.
- Windows included - can anybody give any tips on how to buy without
paying the Windows tax?
Lenovo does not accept partial returns. If you want a Lenovo laptop that is only sold with Windows, you have to pay the tax.
Has anybody tried the 2017 models of the X1 Carbon or X270 with any Linux distribution?
I haven't tried the 2017 models, but Arch Linux runs fine on my T460p, including power management, multitouch gestures on the touchpad, and Bluetooth. I cannot say anything about web cameras as I opted out of visual spying. Hardware-accelerated AES is also nice if you use full disk encryption but that is obviously up to the specific processor you choose.
Cheers,
Hi Daniel and list,
I'm in the same situation: Aging X220t that will need a replacement sooner or later.
This one [1] is my favorite candidate as of now.
Tuxedo has other models as well. I have never held one in my hands, though. A computer- and linux-competent acquaintance of mine bought a BU1506 (iirc) recently and reports good things.
Regarding Lenovo: My X220 tablet's casing - while the device served (and serves) me well and has about the same usage (and travel) profile as my glasses - is of noticeably poorer quality than that of an older X200 I've lying around. (Details: [6]) Therefore, as long as I don't get reliable new data, I'm assuming Lenovo has cut back on quality. They seem no longer to be better than their competition in building hardware for heavy duty. Besides, remember Lenovo's Superfish blunder? I don't want to give those people another €2K.
Other stuff about buying computers I bookmarked, usually when I read about it on one of the FSFE mailing lists, so probably nothing new here: [2], [3], [4], [5]. The last one (Purism) has already been mentioned (negatively) today.
Regards, Franz
[1] https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Notebooks/10-14-Zoll/TU... (Who needs the webpage when he knows that URL?)
[2] https://minifree.org/ [3] https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/ [4] https://store.vikings.net/libre-friendly-hardware [5] https://puri.sm/
[6] The little noses that keep the display from rotating when the lid is closed or rotated and folded over the keyboard didn't survive the first two months. Turns out, they were superfluous anyway. The plastic below the left rubber cushion (where the lid rests on when closed or rotated) gave way recently. I had to fish the peaces out of the ExpressCard slot. That's not due to singular high-stress events, I'm treating that thing like Gollum his ring. It is the material not passing the test of time. The use of low quality adhesive might also be involved. The quality of the docking station was underwhelming in several regards, too: VGA was never usable through it (blurry), even not after I returned it and got a replacement. They probably botched the docking station connector design. The locking mechanism meant to protect the notebook from being stolen by locking it to the docking station broke upon a sharp look. Afterwards, the notebook could by inserted and removed regardless of key position or presence of the key. I'm sure thieves all over the globe find this very impressing.
Am 29.04.2017 um 11:52 schrieb Daniel Pocock:
Hi all,
I'm currently looking at replacing my X220 tablet and hoping to choose something new without spending too much time.
The main reasons for replacing the X220 tablet:
- weight - I'd like to get something under 1.5kg, the lower the better
and there are plenty of models between 1.0 and 1.2kg these days.
- screen resolution - the 768 pixel screen height is troublesome for
some applications
- battery - it is not like new any more
Looking around, though, if I choose a current model laptop (Lenovo or otherwise) it appears there is something of a minefield:
- am I going to run into Secure Boot issues? I've met other people at
events recently who had new laptops and were struggling to get into the BIOS and disable Secure Boot.
- Windows included - can anybody give any tips on how to buy without
paying the Windows tax?
- dongles - many of them favor dongles/expansion ports these days, some
of these dongles only work with the PSU, will the total weight with PSU and dongle really be less than my current laptop?
Are there any specific models that anybody would recommend in the ultraportable form-factor (e.g. under i7, 16GB or more, 1.5kg, 12.5" - 14", suitable for use on small spaces such as on trains and airplanes)?
Has anybody tried the 2017 models of the X1 Carbon or X270 with any Linux distribution?
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
- am I going to run into Secure Boot issues? I've met other people at
events recently who had new laptops and were struggling to get into the BIOS and disable Secure Boot.
I don't think that's an issue anymore. I run Fedora on my x250 with UEFI boot + Secure boot without any problem.
Hi Daniel,
Like you I'm also on the lookout for a replacement, especially for my dayjob as a developer. I need decent performance to run all the Docker containers with JVM processes, combined with the battery-life that can last me a large part of a day filled with meetings.
For personal usage my Librecore T400 should suffice for about 2 more years.
Lenovo is the brand I like, because of their build quality and their trackpoint. Going by the Arch wiki, running GNU/Linux on them should work if you settle for some binary blobs. Something like a T470p perhaps?
Dell is now selling multiple laptops with GNU/Linux preinstalled, although I'm not sure how many blobs they require. A friend of mine uses a recent XPS 13 and is very pleased with it, both the hardware and the distibution.
Tuxedo (linux-onlineshop.de), System76 and Entroware have recently come out with the 13" alu-cased laptop. Of these three vendors I get the sense that System76 is working upstream directly to get their hardware supported, and Entroware is doing so via the Ubuntu-Mate distro. I don't know much about the reputation of Tuxedo.
Purism has my preference at this moment, mostly because they have crippled the Intel ME for their models. The Librem 13 is similar to the models shipped by the vendors named in the above paragraph, but with a slightly different CPU. They seem to only laptop vendor taking part in the deblobbing proces. Their Librem 13 still contains some blobs, but they can do less harm. More on the deblobbing process can be found at: https://github.com/corna/me_cleaner/wiki/How-does-it-work%3F The Dutch Fellow Kevin (the_unconventional@) has more detailed knowledge on the state of blobs.
I hope others can chip in on this topic, so that I too can make a more educated decision in the near future.
Kind regards, Nico