Hi,
An article in the International Herald Tribune says Italy is going to spend a lot of money seting up e-govt at home and in developing countries.
Italy pushes e-government http://www.iht.com/articles/53307.htm
Since the minister responsible is ex-IBM, and IBM are pushing "Linux", there may be an opportunity to make this a GNU/Linux based project.
I'm in the wrong place, (and I don't speak Italian) can someone else take on the task of lobbying the Italian govt on this?
Nick Hockings nick@freenetafrica.org s96121272@op.up.ac.za, s96121272@tuks.co.za, nickh@nupedia.com
I'm in the wrong place, (and I don't speak Italian) can someone else take on the task of lobbying the Italian govt on this?
It's more easily said than done. Italy is really in the thirld world WRT free software. We are really few people and with very minor connections to the parliament (and no link at all with government).
I don't think this is going to introduce any more free software in the public arena, and I don't think we'll manage to have any voice in this.
/alessandro
On Sat, 2002-05-11 at 18:31, Alessandro Rubini wrote:
I'm in the wrong place, (and I don't speak Italian) can someone else take on the task of lobbying the Italian govt on this?
It's more easily said than done. Italy is really in the thirld world WRT free software. We are really few people and with very minor connections to the parliament (and no link at all with government).
I don't think this is going to introduce any more free software in the public arena, and I don't think we'll manage to have any voice in this.
/alessandro
Alessandro is pessimist.
It is true we do not have direct connection with the government, but the Minister do know what Free Software is, in a recent interview at a radio station (Radio 24) he said all of "his" new e-gov site (http://www.innovazione.gov.it) used only free software (it's not completely true however the declaration is important IMO).
This said it is not guaranted that Free Software will be central in the next e-government policy of the goverment, but there's more hope than 6 months ago and we have yet 2 law proposals for the introduction of free software in the Public Administration as the preferred software to use. Unfortunately these 2 proposals come from the opposition parties, but there are rumors that some people in the parties the are backing the goverment were thinking of something similar too.
regards, Simo.
On Sat, May 11, 2002 at 06:31:20PM +0200, Alessandro Rubini wrote:
I'm in the wrong place, (and I don't speak Italian) can someone else take on the task of lobbying the Italian govt on this?
It's more easily said than done. Italy is really in the thirld world WRT free software. We are really few people and with very minor connections to the parliament (and no link at all with government).
I don't think this is going to introduce any more free software in the public arena, and I don't think we'll manage to have any voice in this.
FWIW, i agree on alessandro's pessimism: on the large scale italian government is lobbying with microsoft (is FS dissemination about lobbying really?) and it looks like berlusconi and his collegues are not a 'nice env' to move in.
alltough! a few days ago in pescara, the city i'm born in, the province approved a motion planning to revamp public administration structure using free software, with some guidelines addressing GNU GPL and opensource.
IMHO in italy it's more appropriate to think in terms of region/city scale, instead of national scale, to push the idea (and practice!) of free software.
greetings
-- jaromil ][ http://dyne.org ][ GnuPG _key__id_ EDEE F1B9 DC92 76C0 6D46 D77A 58B0 82D6 (5B6E 6D97)
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### jaromil [Tue, May 14, 2002 at 03:58:40AM +0200]
alltough! a few days ago in pescara, the city i'm born in, the province approved a motion planning to revamp public administration structure using free software, with some guidelines addressing GNU GPL and opensource.
Very cool.
But tell me -- is it possible to do that in Italy? In Austria, the whole administration is centralised to the max -- no way could the local administration of a city decide to switch to a system that is not officially "approved".
Mvh, #!/kyrah - -- Karin Kosina (vka kyrah) http://kyrah.net
Hi,
On Tue, 14 May 2002, Karin Kosina kindly wrote:
--snip--
### jaromil [Tue, May 14, 2002 at 03:58:40AM +0200]
alltough! a few days ago in pescara, the city i'm born in, the province approved a motion planning to revamp public administration structure using free software, with some guidelines addressing GNU GPL and opensource.
Very cool.
Pescara mi ha sempre piacuto...
But tell me -- is it possible to do that in Italy? In Austria, the whole administration is centralised to the max -- no way could the local administration of a city decide to switch to a system that is not officially "approved".
Wrong - http://www.bischofshofen.sbg.at Local communities are the most important way to get into the market.
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### Georg Jakob [Tue, May 14, 2002 at 02:27:47PM +0200]
Wrong - http://www.bischofshofen.sbg.at Local communities are the most important way to get into the market.
I am aware that this is the way to do it, but I am astonished that this should be so easily possible. (If it is, I am of course pleasantly surprised.)
Is this just the webserver that is running on a free system, or are they actually using GNU/Linux internally for their administration? That's hard to believe for me after the experiences I've had with governmental and administrative institutions...
- -- Karin Kosina (vka kyrah) http://kyrah.net
Hi,
On Tue, 14 May 2002, Karin Kosina kindly wrote:
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### Georg Jakob [Tue, May 14, 2002 at 02:27:47PM +0200]
Wrong - http://www.bischofshofen.sbg.at Local communities are the most important way to get into the market.
I am aware that this is the way to do it, but I am astonished that this should be so easily possible. (If it is, I am of course pleasantly surprised.)
Easy it is not, Jedi. Very powerful the dark side is.
Is this just the webserver that is running on a free system, or are they actually using GNU/Linux internally for their administration?
As of now, it's the webserver and only the webserver. But since the city senate's protocols are available via the web, they consider it part of legislature/administration.
There was (and still is) quite heavy competition between Free Software based solutions and proprietary ones, the reason why ours won is that it *works*. An awareness of Licensing issues is only beginning to grow, like a precious little flower, very sensilbe and shy.
And you have to compromise: In June, they will get a GNU/Linux based messaging server. So, the OS is free, the messaging software not. It was either this or they would have bought an MS Exchange Server. Period.
That's hard to believe for me after the experiences I've had with governmental and administrative institutions...
Free Software: 1.) works 2.) is more secure than what MS offers 3.) creates a strategic alternative if one day MS might overdo it's licensing policy.
in that order. Anything else is irrelevant at the moment - for customers.
I know that this sounds like open source speak, but I think that's exactly why we *need* the FSF - to talk about freedom, to create awareness. If you talk about freedom in a sales presentation, you'll be laughed out of business quicker than you can say "GNU".
But the FSF (*not* the OSI) gives us the possibility to change that.
Beware the dark side...
On Tue, May 14, 2002 at 06:13:38PM +0200, Georg Jakob wrote:
If you talk about freedom in a sales presentation, you'll be laughed out of business quicker than you can say "GNU".
Have you ever tried it? Because you can make other experiences.
Especially if you come to the aspects of freedom which have made it into business stream of thoughts, too: freedom from one vendor freedom to compete freedom to learn freedom to teach
Look in history, only the freedom in our modern democratic societies made modern business and great wealth for societies possible. How can business people deny this? :)
Hi,
On Tue, 14 May 2002, Bernhard Reiter kindly wrote:
On Tue, May 14, 2002 at 06:13:38PM +0200, Georg Jakob wrote:
If you talk about freedom in a sales presentation, you'll be laughed out of business quicker than you can say "GNU".
Have you ever tried it?
Yes. If they like you, you'll understand from their questions what they are interested in. If they do not like you, you'll get no more questions and the famous "You'll hear from us" that never happens...
Because you can make other experiences.
What are your experiences in the field? *starving for a less pessimistic view*
Especially if you come to the aspects of freedom which have made it into business stream of thoughts, too: freedom from one vendor freedom to compete freedom to learn freedom to teach
Absolutely right, but my experiences point in another direction, in a strange and disturbing, but nevertheless constant way.
I can't say much how bighshot companies, the fortune 500 react on it, I'm talking about rather small businesses, local, regional... It seems sometimes as MS is the reliable reality to them. Whereas freedom yes, beautiful, but hey, get real *we* can't do that.
Look in history, only the freedom in our modern democratic societies made modern business and great wealth for societies possible. How can business people deny this? :)
This is a mystery to me, too.
On Tue, May 14, 2002 at 07:11:37PM +0200, Georg Jakob wrote:
On Tue, 14 May 2002, Bernhard Reiter kindly wrote:
On Tue, May 14, 2002 at 06:13:38PM +0200, Georg Jakob wrote:
If you talk about freedom in a sales presentation, you'll be laughed out of business quicker than you can say "GNU".
Have you ever tried it?
Yes. If they like you, you'll understand from their questions what they are interested in. If they do not like you, you'll get no more questions and the famous "You'll hear from us" that never happens...
Because you can make other experiences.
What are your experiences in the field? *starving for a less pessimistic view*
Well I'm running a Free Software business. As a service business we are oriented to help our clients with tasks. Of course we do this according to our company ethics (as any company, but many may not say or think so explicitely). Many business persons are listening to the freedom arguments.
Their ability to understand is generally in relation to the ability to relate theoretical knowledge to the real world. Especially arguments that are made about long time frames and slowly reacting system. There are many well known theoretical and generalised results of economics for instance that many business people cannot really make practical use of. If they can, their companies usually tend to be more successful...
Bernhard Reiter bernhard@intevation.de wrote:
What are your experiences in the field? *starving for a less pessimistic view*
Well I'm running a Free Software business. As a service business we are oriented to help our clients with tasks. Of course we do this according to our company ethics (as any company, but many may not say or think so explicitely). Many business persons are listening to the freedom arguments.
I have to agree with this... I think the practical commitment from a development company not to do any of the normal "lock in" tricks is a powerful selling point, especially in a field like internet software development. As Alex hints at in his reply, it is rather easier to make this point persuasive with customers who have been harmed by it in the past.
On Tue, 2002-05-14 at 18:11, Georg Jakob wrote:
freedom from one vendor freedom to compete freedom to learn freedom to teach
Absolutely right, but my experiences point in another direction, in a strange and disturbing, but nevertheless constant way.
I can't say much how bighshot companies, the fortune 500 react on it, I'm talking about rather small businesses, local, regional... It seems sometimes as MS is the reliable reality to them. Whereas freedom yes, beautiful, but hey, get real *we* can't do that.
It really depends on the company, and what their experience is. But (having worked at management level in companies & having consulted for companies ;) most, if not all, companies who have any kind of substantial IT requirement will also have horror stories. Most don't involve Microsoft, although with the licensing changes from 31/07/2002 I expect that to change.
One of the major problems businesses have is that they have little control over IT. No control means that you are unable to manage the risk - that is the basic tenet, and that is what managers understand. Running a business is essentially all about risk, and if you can offer managers a less risky alternative, a better way of business, they will take that. I believe that Free Software is such an alternative, on a number of levels. All the freedoms mentioned above, and more, contribute a greater degree of control by the user (the company) over the product/service (IT), and it really makes a difference.
People often understand better with examples. If you want to spell out to businesspeople how freedom is important, ask them: * how many times have you been stung by a contractor who has developed software for you, but has not given you adequate documentation/retains the product knowledge? how hard has it been to integrate/extend/redevelop such a system? * has an IT services company ever configured your systems with their software and configuration, and held you to ransom? or your own IT staff? * how many times have you had critical information tied up in a file format which your new software can no longer read? * is your company up-to-date with it's licensing from (x) vendor? do you run software which is unlicensed? how do you know that? * how many systems do you have, currently, which cannot exchange information, and which would benefit your business substantially if they could? why are you not able to get them to talk together?
There are hundreds of questions like this. The common problem is back-end financial systems: if you're visiting a company who have an e-commerce website, ask them how easy it was to integrate their website to their back-end system (if they managed it at all!). It all comes down to the same point: businesses have little control over IT, and Free Software gives them much better control. Free Software is a business benefit, and it is an obvious benefit if you explain it in practical terms. It _is_ possible to explain to business people that freedom is important ;)
Cheers,
Alex.
Bernhard Reiter wrote:
How can business people deny this? :)
Unfortunately it is not a question of 'how'.
The real question is 'WHY do business people deny this?'
In all of my discussions I have always been asked the same questions over and over again.
'You have no assets when you give away your sources' 'You can never offer garantuee or exclusiveness' 'Free Software can never be a competitive advantage' 'Your attitude wont feed the kids'
etc. etc.
But whenever they see the result of our work they start to think different. Whenever they take the time to think they start to understand. It is a long long process for the average business guy/girl to understand what risks non-free software is.
I enjoy these discussions. Many people start thinking. And when you take their arguments and examine them closely you can indeed show the misunderstandings in those statements.
Don't give up :-) They will all accept the free software concept :-)
Jan Wildeboer
Jan Wildeboer jan.wildeboer@gmx.de wrote:
In all of my discussions I have always been asked the same questions over and over again.
It's so good to knock these down... here are my attempts. Anyone want to improve them? (Mmm, Free Business?)
'You have no assets when you give away your sources'
Our expertise is the asset, not the performance. The performances are for sale if you want to buy a ticket from the band. (After all, software is just a branch of rock, isn't it?)
'You can never offer garantuee or exclusiveness'
No-one offers guarantees without a service contract anyway. We don't want to be exclusive: we think people prefer to buy in an open market.
'Free Software can never be a competitive advantage'
Free Software is a common development effort which will outstrip private developments in the long term.
'Your attitude wont feed the kids'
Thanks for your concern, but let us worry about how we make money. If you think our prices are too low, you surely should be buying from us. In the worst case and we go bankrupt, you can buy replacement developers on the open market, because of the licence. If you really think it's too low still, feel free to pay us more ;-)
But whenever they see the result of our work they start to think different. Whenever they take the time to think they start to understand. It is a long long process for the average business guy/girl to understand what risks non-free software is. [...]
Yes, and I still don't understand this, apart from the natural business conservatism about new (old?) ideas.
Don't give up :-) They will all accept the free software concept :-)
All your licence are belong to us? (Sorry.)
On Tue, 2002-05-14 at 17:13, Georg Jakob wrote:
I know that this sounds like open source speak, but I think that's exactly why we *need* the FSF - to talk about freedom, to create awareness. If you talk about freedom in a sales presentation, you'll be laughed out of business quicker than you can say "GNU".
I've recently given a lite presentation of Free Software and GNU/Linux on my company. It's an insider job *grin* but they've really like the freedom concept.
There was one naysayer, though, who said: well, but if anyone can make changes, how can it be compatible? I just said, anyone can make changes, but that doesn't mean they will be integrated in the project. You have the source, you change your copy. If you submit a patch and it gets approved by the authors, it may get in the code.
I hope he understood that.
Hugs,
Hello Georg,
While I do not deny most of your other statements, I'd like to add a comment to this one.
Georg Jakob writes:
I know that this sounds like open source speak, but I think that's exactly why we *need* the FSF - to talk about freedom, to create awareness. If you talk about freedom in a sales presentation, you'll be laughed out of business quicker than you can say "GNU".
I do not think so. Freedom per se is not a bad thing even in bussines, else 'they' wouldn't insist on free trade so much. The counterside of the specific freedom you/we/the-FSF is talking about is dependency, mainly from a vendor. In business 'dependency' translates into 'risk': The risk to loose undefined amounts money very quickly to a partner or not-partner-any-more. Actually I believe that this is a language 'they' understand at sales presentations and I've seen it working now and then. One can even turn this into some sort of advertisment: "Look, we give you source and all, you might change your vendor/developer/what-ever, if you ain't satisfied with us some time in the future. Yes, I'm so convinced, we're the best, we won't take you that freedom".
But the FSF (*not* the OSI) gives us the possibility to change that. Beware the dark side...
I will try. :-)
Regards -- Markus