Hi all,
Whenever I'm discussing FSFE with people at an event, somebody inevitably asks me about the joining process or what it means to be an FSFE member.
There has actually been some ambiguity about this. The main page of the web site has a "Join the FSFE" button, it is very prominent.
It links to a page where "join" is in the URL:
https://fsfe.org/fellowship/ams/join.php?ams=join
and the title says "Join the FSFE"
Anybody who has ever joined any other organization before is going to assume that after following these links and completing the form they are an equal member of the organization.
In practice, the organization has different groups:
- the GA members (the first group) being the only members of the legal body, the "Join" page doesn't give any instructions for people to pursue this type of membership nor does it tell people that they are not becoming voting members
- The "Join" links on the web site should probably say "Become a donor" because that is what they are about, asking people to become regular donors (this is the second group)
- people can also be a volunteer (the third group), without being either a legal (voting) member or a donor, the join link doesn't actually give people any information about how to do this
I've tried to raise this in the GA a few times but the "Join the FSFE" button remains prominent on the web site and I feel this undermines the organization in the eyes of the wider community and also challenges the relationship between the organization and those people who have already engaged with us.
I proposed a motion for the GA meeting to finally resolve this, give us clarity in the future and hopefully putting the issue behind us in a way that will gain respect and confidence from anybody who "joined" and subsequently became disillusioned about it.
Would anybody like to comment on this topic, share their experience with the joining process or comment on your impression of the buttons and text currently in use?
Proposed motion: The GA recognizes that the widespread use of the word "Join" on the FSFE web site may have caused many fellows and volunteers to believe their payment made them a member of the incorporated association. The GA resolves that a notice should be published on the web site clarifying the situation, the notice should be sent to everybody who completed the form to "Join the FSFE" and any future communication, through the web site or other marketing materials should make it unambiguous whether people are being solicited to join the incorporated association, volunteer their time or become a financial supporter and also making them aware of the alternative roles they can have in the organization.
Regards,
Daniel
Il 02/10/2017 10:13, Daniel Pocock ha scritto:
Hi all,
Whenever I'm discussing FSFE with people at an event, somebody inevitably asks me about the joining process or what it means to be an FSFE member.
There has actually been some ambiguity about this. The main page of the web site has a "Join the FSFE" button, it is very prominent.
It links to a page where "join" is in the URL:
https://fsfe.org/fellowship/ams/join.php?ams=join
and the title says "Join the FSFE"
Anybody who has ever joined any other organization before is going to assume that after following these links and completing the form they are an equal member of the organization.
Hi Daniel,
thank you for this post and thank you very much for the work you are doing to bring FSFE-fellowsip to emerge and be comparable with other european clubs/associations/fundations/etc. entity!
It taken few years for me to understand that clicking on that button and *paying* e regular _fee_, in the end, I was not e regular voting member how would I be in an Italian association. I admit, I don't know German laws that regulate this kind of "people aggregation" entity, but a more clear explanation by FSFE would be valuable!
Proposed motion: The GA recognizes that the widespread use of the word "Join" on the FSFE web site may have caused many fellows and volunteers to believe their payment made them a member of the incorporated association. The GA resolves that a notice should be published on the web site clarifying the situation, the notice should be sent to everybody who completed the form to "Join the FSFE" and any future communication, through the web site or other marketing materials should make it unambiguous whether people are being solicited to join the incorporated association, volunteer their time or become a financial supporter and also making them aware of the alternative roles they can have in the organization.
I definitely support your motion!
My best, Andrea
This is shameful! There ist no reason to not let everyone become a member. I have read today. I have read a lot, and it is clear the FSF should be ashamed of themselves. I am glad there are people like you Daniel who can change this! Just read:
https://www.fsf.org/associate/
It's all about giving money to the FSF. Never once are listed any benefits of being able to vote!
Shameful.
Cornelia
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: "joining" the FSFE Local Time: October 2, 2017 8:13 AM UTC Time: October 2, 2017 8:13 AM From: daniel@pocock.pro To: FSFE Discussion discussion@fsfeurope.org
Hi all,
Whenever I"m discussing FSFE with people at an event, somebody inevitably asks me about the joining process or what it means to be an FSFE member.
There has actually been some ambiguity about this. The main page of the web site has a "Join the FSFE" button, it is very prominent.
It links to a page where "join" is in the URL:
https://fsfe.org/fellowship/ams/join.php?ams=join
and the title says "Join the FSFE"
Anybody who has ever joined any other organization before is going to assume that after following these links and completing the form they are an equal member of the organization.
In practice, the organization has different groups:
- the GA members (the first group) being the only members of the legal
body, the "Join" page doesn"t give any instructions for people to pursue this type of membership nor does it tell people that they are not becoming voting members
- The "Join" links on the web site should probably say "Become a donor"
because that is what they are about, asking people to become regular donors (this is the second group)
- people can also be a volunteer (the third group), without being either
a legal (voting) member or a donor, the join link doesn"t actually give people any information about how to do this
I"ve tried to raise this in the GA a few times but the "Join the FSFE" button remains prominent on the web site and I feel this undermines the organization in the eyes of the wider community and also challenges the relationship between the organization and those people who have already engaged with us.
I proposed a motion for the GA meeting to finally resolve this, give us clarity in the future and hopefully putting the issue behind us in a way that will gain respect and confidence from anybody who "joined" and subsequently became disillusioned about it.
Would anybody like to comment on this topic, share their experience with the joining process or comment on your impression of the buttons and text currently in use?
Proposed motion: The GA recognizes that the widespread use of the word "Join" on the FSFE web site may have caused many fellows and volunteers to believe their payment made them a member of the incorporated association. The GA resolves that a notice should be published on the web site clarifying the situation, the notice should be sent to everybody who completed the form to "Join the FSFE" and any future communication, through the web site or other marketing materials should make it unambiguous whether people are being solicited to join the incorporated association, volunteer their time or become a financial supporter and also making them aware of the alternative roles they can have in the organization.
Regards,
Daniel
Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
On 02/10/17 14:13, Cornelia.sulzbach wrote:
This is shameful! There ist no reason to not let everyone become a member. I have read today. I have read a lot, and it is clear the FSF should be ashamed of themselves. I am glad there are people like you Daniel who can change this! Just read:
https://www.fsf.org/associate/
It's all about giving money to the FSF. Never once are listed any benefits of being able to vote!
FSF and FSFE are different organizations and applying to join one doesn't make you a member of the other.
Comparing the membership procedures of each organization and proposing how they should evolve in the future is welcome. If you want that to involve the FSF members as well, or if you are an FSF member, then please also raise this on one of the FSF mailing lists and feel free to invite FSF people to comment here too (and vice versa)
Regards,
Daniel
Hello everybody,
I just wanted to share my experience despite my lack of knowledge on this debate. The join the FSFE button has always seems tricky to me as the my main intention when I have used it (and this happened a few time these past years) was to offer some of my time and skills to the FSFE instead of money.
This is actually of the main reason why I follow this mailing-list as I have not yet found a clear way to invest myself in the action of the FSFE other than simply sharing campaigns or promoting Free Software by myself.
Proposed motion: > The GA recognizes that the widespread use of the word "Join" on the FSFE > web site may have caused many fellows and volunteers to believe their > payment made them a member of the incorporated association. The GA > resolves that a notice should be published on the web site clarifying > the situation, the notice should be sent to everybody who completed the > form to "Join the FSFE" and any future communication, through the web > site or other marketing materials should make it unambiguous whether > people are being solicited to join the incorporated association, > volunteer their time or become a financial supporter and also making > them aware of the alternative roles they can have in the organization.
I therefor support and agree with the last part of this proposal as it might help be find my way as a volunteer for the FSFE the same way I found it in other organizations.
Thank you Daniel for this proposition.
Best, Eliot
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: "joining" the FSFE Local Time: October 2, 2017 9:18 PM UTC Time: October 2, 2017 12:18 PM From: daniel@pocock.pro To: FSFE Discussion discussion@fsfeurope.org
On 02/10/17 14:13, Cornelia.sulzbach wrote:
This is shameful! There ist no reason to not let everyone become a member. I have read today. I have read a lot, and it is clear the FSF should be ashamed of themselves. I am glad there are people like you Daniel who can change this! Just read:
https://www.fsf.org/associate/
It"s all about giving money to the FSF. Never once are listed any benefits of being able to vote!
FSF and FSFE are different organizations and applying to join one doesn"t make you a member of the other.
Comparing the membership procedures of each organization and proposing how they should evolve in the future is welcome. If you want that to involve the FSF members as well, or if you are an FSF member, then please also raise this on one of the FSF mailing lists and feel free to invite FSF people to comment here too (and vice versa)
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
On Monday 2. October 2017 10.13.24 Daniel Pocock wrote:
Proposed motion: The GA recognizes that the widespread use of the word "Join" on the FSFE web site may have caused many fellows and volunteers to believe their payment made them a member of the incorporated association. The GA resolves that a notice should be published on the web site clarifying the situation, the notice should be sent to everybody who completed the form to "Join the FSFE" and any future communication, through the web site or other marketing materials should make it unambiguous whether people are being solicited to join the incorporated association, volunteer their time or become a financial supporter and also making them aware of the alternative roles they can have in the organization.
I support what you are trying to achieve here. Other organisations label such roles as "supporters". For example:
https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/
In such organisations, one may be left with the impression that the organisation primarily wants donations to help their work. There is no indication that anyone is "joining" as some policy-influencing participant. (The organisation given above does also have some volunteer activities, however. It also hosts projects that have their own democratic directions.)
Again, the FSFE should be clear about what it wants from people who "join" (money, time, expertise), and the organisation should be a venue where contributions of whatever kind are maximised. I specifically started my involvement with the FSFE instead of continuing to contribute to the FFII (if people even remember that) because of the more obvious indications of collaboration within what the FSFE were doing: it seemed more like a community of people acting together than a way of financially supporting those who needed to influence policy-makers for some stated reason.
As you note in one of your other motions, there are various threats to Free Software that need to be resisted directly by organisations like the FSFE. The FSFE could provide a venue for people to collaborate in this regard so that, for example, people might know where they would discuss and even work on alternatives to proprietary communications technologies.
Unfortunately, current venues of discussion (like this mailing list) are limited to providing an audience towards whom people may pitch their ideas and products, worthy or otherwise, with the effect being at best that people feel that they are "doing something" if they voice their support or go off and pledge some money. That may fit in with some people's vision for the organisation, but it isn't what I had in mind when I signed up.
Paul