On 09/01/2017 09:54 AM, discussion-request@lists.fsfe.org wrote:
Subject: Re: FSFE in Outreachy? From: Carmen Bianca Bakker carmenbianca@fsfe.org Date: 09/01/2017 07:52 AM
To: discussion@lists.fsfe.org
Dear Carmen
This is my first post on this list that I have been lurking for some time but it is very impossible for me to let this be said without reacting.
Re-posting the below, which ended up on the wrong mailing list:
Hi,
I don't know if it's okay if I add my five cents (adjusted for inflation), but I'm reasonably well-read on this and adjacent topics, as well as included in the list of minorities that would be sponsored under the Outreachy program.
Carmen, the fact that you are a women does not make your voice any more important in pulling down a fight that others have led for years in order to change as little as they could current worlds order.
But I am unequivocally against such programs, on the simple grounds that it tries to combat discrimination _through_ discrimination, which is about as silly to me as trying to achieve world peace through war.
I do not see any relation between building programs to encourage diversity and war could you please expand.
It generates envy/antipathy in individuals from groups that are excluded from the given list of minorities, and it generates imposter syndrome in those who are,
I do not think the people who are victims of centuries of paternalist government and colonialism should feel responsible of what the white governing people fell. I really do not care about what they feel actually, I am more interested on what the persons who are victim of segregation feel.
because they might only be hired/accepted because of their status as minority, rather than excelling in their skillset.
I do not see why people would hire anyone for anything else then their skills. Also women and/or black people are not a minority women compose more then 50% of the world population and white people in general only compose 1/8 of worlds population, it is white men that are a minority in this world, but it is also them who run it. Also what you say implies that non white male might have less skills then white male, could you please state references for what you are saying here.
I would be very against getting involved in this program, though I know that the FSFE currently practises positive discrmination selection standards for its internship program:
We want more women to be involved in Free Software. That's why we will give preference to applications from suitably qualified female candidates.
from https://fsfe.org/contribute/internship.en.html
I'd personally be a little bit disappointed if this carried any significance in my being selected as intern, because I do believe that I can hold my own with my unique skillset.
I really do not see why you should be judged like this and please feel reassured no-one has any reason to think that.
On Thursday, 31 August 2017 13:43:59 CEST Daniel Pocock wrote:
Increasing diversity could also help avoid situations like this in future.
I don't know if there is any evidence to suggest this. Where there are humans, things sometimes go awry. Having a more ethnically/sexually diverse cast of humans doesn't change that.
Could you please reference what you say because I happen to think the exact contrary,
regards
natacha
Hi Natacha,
On Monday, 4 September 2017 10:17:16 CEST natacha wrote:
This is my first post on this list that I have been lurking for some
Welcome to the mailing list :-)
I don't know if it's okay if I add my five cents (adjusted for inflation), but I'm reasonably well-read on this and adjacent topics, as well as included in the list of minorities that would be sponsored under the Outreachy program.
Carmen, the fact that you are a women does not make your voice any more important in pulling down a fight that others have led for years in order to change as little as they could current worlds order.
I agree that my voice is no more important than anybody else's. Which is why I did not claim that. I am not pulling down any fight, however. You will find me advocating for freedom and equality for all. I merely disagree with this measure.
But I am unequivocally against such programs, on the simple grounds that it tries to combat discrimination _through_ discrimination, which is about as silly to me as trying to achieve world peace through war.
I do not see any relation between building programs to encourage diversity and war could you please expand.
It's a metaphor. Consider also: Drying something by pouring water over it. You can't achieve something by doing its opposite.
I do not think the people who are victims of centuries of paternalist government and colonialism should feel responsible of what the white governing people fell. I really do not care about what they feel actually, I am more interested on what the persons who are victim of segregation feel.
Well this is where we depart. You are saying that some people deserve your sympathy and support, and other people do not deserve your sympathy and support, by mere virtue of how they were born. I care for _everybody's_ equality and freedom. Surely, I hope, that's a good thing.
because they might only be hired/accepted because of their status as minority, rather than excelling in their skillset.
I do not see why people would hire anyone for anything else then their skills. Also women and/or black people are not a minority women compose more then 50% of the world population and white people in general only compose 1/8 of worlds population, it is white men that are a minority in this world, but it is also them who run it.
Please replace every instance where I said "minority" with "women and ethnical minorities in the United States". I'd like a better word, but "minority" works reasonably well because, to put it bluntly, the named groups are minority groups in information technology. Unfortunately I have not found a better word, but I'd like suggestions if you have any. Because, to be fair, "women and ethnical minorities in the United States" is a mouthful.
Also what you say implies that non white male might have less skills then white male, could you please state references for what you are saying here.
You will find that I said the exact opposite. I said that if a member of a minority group is given an internship under these discriminatory guidelines, they may not be sure whether this is owed to their status as minority (i.e., cheating the system), or because of their high skill level. This is a phenomenom well known as imposter syndrome, which is reasonably common among software engineers. God knows I sometimes feel like I'm cheating the system and just winging it rather than having any substantial merit. How could I not, when every day I encounter some software thing I know absolutely nothing about?
I don't know if there is any evidence to suggest this. Where there are humans, things sometimes go awry. Having a more ethnically/sexually diverse cast of humans doesn't change that.
Could you please reference what you say because I happen to think the exact contrary,
Take Switzerland or Belgium, two countries that are diverse in native ethnicities. Ask any one person whether they have once had disagreements in spite of living in such a diverse country, and you will find that they answer yes. It is in our nature to sometimes squabble and disagree, as I suppose we do now. Diversity does not prevent this.
What you probably mean, is that squabbles occur less often in diverse environments. That is an interesting point of view, but I cannot vouch one way or the other. I do not know. I imagine the opposite, because this increases the surface area of things that people do not have in common and may thus fight over, but that's just a silly hypothesis.
But the lot of that aside: I have said my piece, which is that I abhor discrimination of any kind over something so arbitrary and superficial as gender or ethnicity. People of all ethnicities and genders are equals, and I will treat them as equals without any prejudice. If that is not enough, I do not know what is.
Having said that, I will not change your mind or anybody else's. Never in my time on the internet have I ever encountered someone's mind being changed on this issue in an internet debate. I would be more than happy to speak to you in person over VOIP, but I have no will to carry on this debate on a mailing list when I know its outcome: Exactly nothing.
I hope you considered some of the debate fruitful. And I hope you'll agree with me, to agree to disagree. To do anything else seems a folly.
Mi vin bone deziras, malsamideano, kaj bonan belan versperon al vi.
Yours sincerely,
On 09/04/2017 10:14 PM, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
I do not think the people who are victims of centuries of paternalist government and colonialism should feel responsible of what the white governing people fell. I really do not care about what they feel actually, I am more interested on what the persons who are victim of segregation feel.
Well this is where we depart. You are saying that some people deserve your sympathy and support, and other people do not deserve your sympathy and support, by mere virtue of how they were born. I care for _everybody's_ equality and freedom. Surely, I hope, that's a good thing.
I think it's not. What you are saying is that you care equally and sympathize with both the oppressor and the victim on a given situation.
Caring more about people who are victims of oppression doesn't mean you want to put them in the place of their oppressors. So, sure these type of initiative focus on specific groups. That doesn't imply hate or any other feeling for everyone else.
~nikos
Carmen Bianca:
You are saying that some people deserve your sympathy and support, and other people do not deserve your sympathy and support, by mere virtue of how they were born. I care for _everybody's_ equality and freedom. Surely, I hope, that's a good thing.
Seconded. Thanks a lot for raising this point of view.
Nikos:
I think it's not. What you are saying is that you care equally and sympathize with both the oppressor and the victim on a given situation.
You are right in disagreeing in an oppressor/victim setup. But I don't think we white males are oppressors in this context. It's a fact that most CS people is male (and maybe white, but maybe not) and this must be fixed, because it's the result of some social prejudice. But I don't think reverse-prejudice is usually the proper way to solve it.
Sure my female students used to be the best in the class, but most likely just because only the best survived the social selection. Should I favor female over male within the good students? I don't think so.
/alessandro, in the darker half of white males, which turns "funny" at times
On 04.09.2017 10:17, natacha wrote:
But I am unequivocally against such programs, on the simple grounds that it tries to combat discrimination _through_ discrimination, which is about as silly to me as trying to achieve world peace through war.
To just negate discrimination makes it even stronger. That's why to fight the (existing) discrimination against Non-WASP[1] in favour of WASP. it is necessary to name discrimination.
Stating that there is no difference just hides the social distinctions which are actually in place and working. This leads to neglecting those who are discriminated.
[1] Just as example: White Anglo-Saxon Protestants