From Slashdot:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/01/1355235&from=rss
We know that Nokia hardware is NOT fully open. See for example the raffle issue with the Nokia N800 devices (where are they now?)
There are some groups/companies that are investing on GNU/Linux on handhelds and mobile phones.
ACCESS with the APL: http://www.access-company.com/products/linux/alp.html
More photos here: http://www.pdaexpertos.com/Articulos/Editorial/ACCESS_Linux_Platform_photos.... http://jaduncan.net/access-linux-platform-demoed
Openmoko group:
Palm is shipping devices with Windows Mobile and Palm OS. I hope they will ship GNU/Linux devices too. :)
Ubuntu Mobile:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded
Hello all,
On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 11:55:39AM +0200, arc wrote:
Openmoko group:
It's October now. Does anybody know when they will start selling them to the masses?
What I would like to see, eventually, is a database of vendors who sell "free"d hardware like openmoko or laptops without any proprietary software on them.
Is anybody aware of such a resource? If there isn't any, we should create it. I find it very hard to find "appropriate" hardware.
What do you think?
Regards,
Guido
On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 23:03 +0200, Guido Arnold wrote:
On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 11:55:39AM +0200, arc wrote:
Openmoko group:
It's October now. Does anybody know when they will start selling them to the masses?
Early next year hopefully; the hardware (Neo) is likely to be ready before the software (OpenMoko) from the looks of it, and you'll be able to buy a final-ish version of the phone before the software is "mass market" ready I think - maybe even late this year.
What I would like to see, eventually, is a database of vendors who sell "free"d hardware like openmoko or laptops without any proprietary software on them.
Well, the Neo has proprietary software "on it" if you count the internal modem. I'm not sure how interesting a list that would be, particularly if you count firmware - the number of devices would basically be zero.
There is always some aspect of a device which is proprietary.
Cheers,
Alex.
Hello all,
On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 10:18:35PM +0100, Alex Hudson wrote:
On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 23:03 +0200, Guido Arnold wrote:
On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 11:55:39AM +0200, arc wrote:
It's October now. Does anybody know when they will start selling them to the masses?
Early next year hopefully; the hardware (Neo) is likely to be ready before the software (OpenMoko) from the looks of it, and you'll be able to buy a final-ish version of the phone before the software is "mass market" ready I think - maybe even late this year.
Thanks for your responses. Hm, I'll have to see if I can wait that long. My current mobile is at it's last legs.
What I would like to see, eventually, is a database of vendors who sell "free"d hardware like openmoko or laptops without any proprietary software on them.
Well, the Neo has proprietary software "on it" if you count the internal modem. I'm not sure how interesting a list that would be, particularly if you count firmware - the number of devices would basically be zero.
Yes, I know. For this particular list/database, I wouldn't be that rigorous as a start. The GCC wasn't written on a Free Software driven machine in 1984. My intention is to support those vendors who offer hardware that meets the necessary freedoms as close as possible/available. I envision a guide that helps to choose the "lesser evil".
If there is no portable music player on the market, I would recommend the ones that play ogg and are able to communicate with a GNU system without any proprietary drivers. Because all other players wouldn't just be proprietary, they would force the user to make her system un-free.
All hardware databases I found on the internet just care if it "runs" at all, not if it runs with Free Software. So, I definitely see a need for such a list to promote Free Software and to enable us to "vote" with our money.
If we keep buying e. g. windows-taxed laptops (and not claim the tax back), why should the vendors change their strategy?
Depending on the popularity of that database, it might create competition between the vendors to get a higher "ranking". But now, I start daydreaming and better leave it alone for today. :)
What do you think?
Greetings,
Guido
Guido Arnold ha scritto:
Thanks for your responses. Hm, I'll have to see if I can wait that long. My current mobile is at it's last legs.
As said before, there is not actually a mobile phone available to buy which is based entirely on free software/hardware.
The nearest ones are Openmoko and I think the ACCESS devices when they will be ready, IMHO.
What I would like to see, eventually, is a database of vendors who sell "free"d hardware like openmoko or laptops without any proprietary software on them.
The nearest ones to your desires are listed on my homepage:
www.chi3.org/hardware.php
I listed notebooks with GNU/Linux preinstalled (even if GNU system is Ubuntu which is not entirely free by now), cell phones (like Neo) and gaming console (like GPX).
It's not a perfect list of entirely free hardware/software devices. They are the nearest ones to the target, as you said before. I completely agree with you on your ideas. If completely free devices are not yet ready, we should list the most free ones.
I know nothing about free software/hardware vendors. My idea was only a start towards a future when we will have entirely free devices to list. :)
(suggestions are welcome!)
On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 08:57:49AM +0200, arc wrote:
The nearest ones to your desires are listed on my homepage:
www.chi3.org/hardware.php
I listed notebooks with GNU/Linux preinstalled (even if GNU system is Ubuntu which is not entirely free by now),
Yes, I think that if a vendor like Dell offers at least an option to their customers, this is a big step forward. They don't go far enough, but still...
There are other vendors that aren't even aware of the whole issue, but offer hardware without any Software. This is ok with me. On a ethical point of view, that's even better than trying to make money out of the name "Linux" and providing only partly Free Software.
I know nothing about free software/hardware vendors. My idea was only a start towards a future when we will have entirely free devices to list. :)
Since a hardware database already exists at FSF, the vendors are what I am concerned about in this discussion. To find them is really a pain. So, I would love to see them collected somewhere.
(suggestions are welcome!)
All right, here we go:
Next to http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw I would put the link http://linuxbios.org/index.php/Supported_Motherboards
For the vendor's part, for Chapter Germany I can offer:
http://www.linsoft.de/ They build PCs using the hardware as requested and install/configure a GNU/Linux distribution on it.
I haven't checked it, but if they have a FreeBIOS compatible motherboard in their collection, this might be the first 100% freed PC on the market I have ever seen!
And this page offers some laptops without any software on them: http://www.lapworld.de/
That's about it (already).
Greetings,
Guido
Hi,
On 10/3/07, Guido Arnold guido@gnu.org wrote:
I haven't checked it, but if they have a FreeBIOS compatible motherboard in their collection, this might be the first 100% freed PC on the market I have ever seen!
no, because it still ships nonfree firmware in its onboard network card and even the CPU comes with nonfree microcode. With your definition of 'free' it will never be possible to build a free computer.
I have found some interesting quote at http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/cameras: 'Cameras that use the uvcvideo driver work without proprietary firmware.' That is just not true. Every camera I am aware of comes with nonfree firmware. Some cameras just have a (documented or reverse engineered) way to upload firmware images.
Cheers, Torsten
On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 07:49:06PM +0200, Torsten Werner wrote:
Hi,
On 10/3/07, Guido Arnold guido@gnu.org wrote:
I haven't checked it, but if they have a FreeBIOS compatible motherboard in their collection, this might be the first 100% freed PC on the market I have ever seen!
no, because it still ships nonfree firmware in its onboard network card and even the CPU comes with nonfree microcode. With your definition of 'free' it will never be possible to build a free computer.
Well, I am not too concerned about nonfree microcode in some chips for the time being. Without any deeper knowledge, I asume that this kind of code can not take control over a system, right?
As I said, I just would like to know (and help others to find out) where to buy hardware that can be used with a GNU/Linux system.
the FSF hardware database tells me which devices are supported, and the search engine of my choice might tell me where to get them. But I would like to support those vendors who adopt their assortment to my needs. Those, who already did the research for me and found out what kind of hardware can be used. Those who consider me, a Free Software user, as a paying customer.
Greetings,
Guido
Guido Arnold guido@gnu.org writes:
If there is no portable music player on the market, I would recommend the ones that play ogg and are able to communicate with a GNU system
FWIW, when I wanted a digital audio player, I got one that runs rockbox:
and am very happy with the software.
Am Mittwoch 10 Oktober 2007 14:47:15 schrieb Ciaran O'Riordan:
Guido Arnold guido@gnu.org writes:
If there is no portable music player on the market, I would recommend the ones that play ogg and are able to communicate with a GNU system
FWIW, when I wanted a digital audio player, I got one that runs rockbox:
and am very happy with the software.
There are open/free portable music players: www.neurosaudio.com Their Player has a free Firmware and even the Hardware (plans and stuff) are free. But the things are rather big altogether. I have one since a couple of years though and am happy with it. Also the prices are good i think.
On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 09:03:17PM +0000, Hannes Hauswedell wrote:
There are open/free portable music players: www.neurosaudio.com
Thanks for the hint. I added the side on my list. But as far as I got it, they are not really "portable devices", are they?
Cheers,
Guido
On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 03:47:15PM +0100, Ciaran O'Riordan wrote:
Guido Arnold guido@gnu.org writes:
If there is no portable music player on the market, I would recommend the ones that play ogg and are able to communicate with a GNU system
FWIW, when I wanted a digital audio player, I got one that runs rockbox:
Yepp, thanks for the hint. I found this page just two days ago and included it to my new link collection http://home.arcor.de/g.arnold/free-hardware.html
If you have any further input for me, please let me know.
Guido
On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 10:18:35PM +0100, Alex Hudson wrote:
Well, the Neo has proprietary software "on it" if you count the internal modem. I'm not sure how interesting a list that would be, particularly if you count firmware - the number of devices would basically be zero.
There is always some aspect of a device which is proprietary.
As far as I could understand from the Neo's information, it's all Free Software except some components put in ROM (well, maybe it's a REPROM) like the GSM and GPS components, allowing the system to operate without BLOBs.
This isn't much different from a computer BIOS, and while it's a goal to be able to replace them, they are still very immature and unless you are even more extremely careful, you won't even be able to buy a motherboard that can have it's BIOS replaced by something like OpenBIOS.
I know I don't have any such device yet, sadly.
However, after the huge disappointment that the N770 and N800 Nokia models are, the Neo is quite a breath of fresh air!
Rui
On Sun, 2007-10-07 at 10:41 +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 10:18:35PM +0100, Alex Hudson wrote:
Well, the Neo has proprietary software "on it" if you count the internal modem. I'm not sure how interesting a list that would be, particularly if you count firmware - the number of devices would basically be zero.
There is always some aspect of a device which is proprietary.
As far as I could understand from the Neo's information, it's all Free Software except some components put in ROM (well, maybe it's a REPROM) like the GSM and GPS components, allowing the system to operate without BLOBs.
Not quite, as I understand it. The GPS is a somewhat separate story, since it's not clear what chipset they're going forward with - the current one is proprietary, but I doubt that users of the GTA02 Neo will suffer that - even the current proprietary one has had some decent reverse engineering done it.
The GSM thing isn't in ROM; it's a GSM modem that's connected to an internal serial port. It's just like plugging in an external modem in the old days - it's effectively a separate piece of hardware, and you just send it AT commands.
Cheers,
Alex.
On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 06:33:32PM +0100, Alex Hudson wrote:
On Sun, 2007-10-07 at 10:41 +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 10:18:35PM +0100, Alex Hudson wrote:
Well, the Neo has proprietary software "on it" if you count the internal modem. I'm not sure how interesting a list that would be, particularly if you count firmware - the number of devices would basically be zero.
There is always some aspect of a device which is proprietary.
As far as I could understand from the Neo's information, it's all Free Software except some components put in ROM (well, maybe it's a REPROM) like the GSM and GPS components, allowing the system to operate without BLOBs.
Not quite, as I understand it. The GPS is a somewhat separate story, since it's not clear what chipset they're going forward with - the current one is proprietary, but I doubt that users of the GTA02 Neo will suffer that - even the current proprietary one has had some decent reverse engineering done it.
The GSM thing isn't in ROM; it's a GSM modem that's connected to an internal serial port. It's just like plugging in an external modem in the old days - it's effectively a separate piece of hardware, and you just send it AT commands.
I don't know if they could even sell a phone if the GSM and GPS parts aren't the official closed ones, so here's to hoping to one of two things: 1) GPS can be free'd 2) they can attach it externally and just read/write commands as in the GSM modem
Still, a hell of a lot better than any other options at the moment! :)
Rui
On Mon, 2007-10-08 at 10:59 +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
I don't know if they could even sell a phone if the GSM and GPS parts aren't the official closed ones, so here's to hoping to one of two things:
- GPS can be free'd
- they can attach it externally and just read/write commands as in the GSM modem
I don't think there's a problem with the GPS - iirc, the "law" is that it can only work below certain altitudes and speeds, so it would never work if you were flying, but I think that's actually encoded into the chips themselves in most cases rather than being a software limitation.
The GPS limitation would be a military requirement rather than a civilian one - which is where the radio limitations come into play with wifi / GSM / etc. - so I would imagine a software limit wouldn't be good enough for them :)
Still, a hell of a lot better than any other options at the moment! :)
Yeah, I think they've done an amazing job.
Cheers,
Alex.
On Mon, 2007-10-08 at 10:59 +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
I don't know if they could even sell a phone if the GSM and GPS parts aren't the official closed ones, so here's to hoping to one of two things:
- GPS can be free'd
- they can attach it externally and just read/write commands as in the GSM modem
Just as an update:
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-October/011013.html
The decision to use the Atmel ATR0635 means that it will be a chip which simply speaks the NMEA protocol over a serial line, and therefore can be used by standard free software like gpsd.
Cheers,
Alex.
On 10/02/07 23:03, Guido Arnold wrote:
On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 11:55:39AM +0200, arc wrote:
Openmoko group:
It's October now. Does anybody know when they will start selling them to the masses?
unfortunately, the neo1973 is delayed. there were no official statements when i last checked, but rumor has it they will sell a new shipment of developer phones by mid-october (those will be closer to the final ones as far as hw is concerned), and the plan is to have the final production ready for christmas.
chrysn