I want to call your attention to a serious ongoing organizational asymmetry between a group like the FSFE with their ties to big software (ie: Github whom RMS has spoken against), dedicated office, staff, and budget vs an unorganized set of independent Free Software developers who might be struggling to provide themselves comparable resources. Consider an individual like David who may refrain from Twitter, Facebook, and Github because they do not respect his freedoms, standing up to the Goliath Software Cabal who have no problems censoring people on platforms they control or have influence over. He would not stand a chance against them without our support; we probably would not even know his name. It’s very valiant and i applaud and pledge my support again.
If this discussion has made anything clear it’s that extreme conflict of interest within the FSFE prevents them from acting in our best interest. Until the internal conflicts are resolved they can not be trusted to be independent of their tech industry donors’ interests.
===== On Censorship =====
There are three parties in any instance of censorship: The censor who prevents censored material from reaching people; the censored, whose communication is obstructed; and the uninformed who are ignorant of the censored content or even that censorship has taken place. Some forms of censorship could be naïevily misidentified as (accidental) omissions. But some more subtle and chilling techniques are unmistakable in their intent.
For most (probably you, reader), censorship is ignorance because you would not have access to an alternative you don’t know exists. Generally, the broadest effect of censorship is on the uninformed who are prevented from learning of censored topics. But, ignorance is not the deepest most disastrous impact of censorship, the relationship between the censor and the censored is the most damaging and disastrous consequence for the Free Software movement because as Paul Bodie has pointed out people walk away from Free Software after dealing with this kind of skulduggery. To give a timely example of someone who did so, have a look at Michael Stapelberg who stepped down from Debian earlier this spring: https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-winding-down/ He complains of a remarquable overlap in topics of discussion from one time to the next over the span of a decade. This is a form of censorship known online as side-scrolling. Where irrelevant topics are inserted and refactored ad-nauseam until exhausting participants’ willingness to contribute to a discussion they view a onerous and unintelligent. Another form of censorship; effectively burying the discussion in irrelevance.
Most people are optimistic, when their messages does not reach the mailing list they scratch their heads, check their SMTP settings and simply chalk it up to a mistake; they dont think anything nefarious is going on.
While the law of average states that for each person who speaks up about censorship there are ten more who simply drift away from the community not knowing if it was something wrong with their email client or the server. For the one and ten who does not simply drift away and wonder what happened to his messages, there are those being made to think that the removal or alteration of their content was somehow for-the-greater-good, that the author was off-base or overly emotional. This is not acceptable!
Personally, I have experienced instances of de facto censorship in the form of not being allowed to participate in an election, having messages delayed until untimely, unauthorized edits, and removal of messages. *I think it is absolutely important we avoid censorship in any communication in any form. *
In a world where parent companies sell their customers’ data to third-parties as part of surveillance-as-a-service agreements, beneficiary organizations are relied on to provide censorship-as-a-service to complete an ecosystem of ignorance and diversion for the end user. We do not need any censorship or moderation on this list. I demand the FSFE stop trying to frame the situation as if it was one discontented person with a personal gripe and *I demand they publish ALL of the censored messages.*
For this reason and because i hold you in regard for our shared interest in computing, I urge all other Free Software fellows to regularly re-evaluate their communications platform choices from the perspective that they be as free from any form any form of censorship as possible. (Hint: It’s not always the sexy apps that respect their users AND apps that were OK at one point, might no longer be.) Give consideration to your commutation choices and you will be rewarded with the most informed discussion possible.
The alternative, living in a world of ignorance and diversion might not be a problem for a short while. But, continued reliance on moderation to lessen the burden on our collective ability for critical thinking will corral our thoughts. Inevitably this will lead to off-loading of our logical capabilities to the censor. With time, this will morph into extremism. Thus, enforcing the status-quo will only benefit one specific community, the Donald Trump Republican Community, and help keep the world the same for a long time.
These people, and I’m assuming you consider them as people, who have censored others with the goal to maintain their status as a flagship organization in Free Software are the ones who actually deserve to be silenced themselves.
P.S. I sent this email to both mailing lists at the same time. It should interesting to see if/when it appears on each list.
Hi Joe,
On 06.05.19 16:58, Joe Awni wrote:
Personally, I have experienced instances of de facto censorship in the form of not being allowed to participate in an election,
You have not being allowed to participate because the deadline for candidates have been on February 1st and you applied on April 15, means you have been 2,5 months beyond the deadline. This is in no way censorship.
here available for everyone to see: https://lists.fsfe.org/pipermail/discussion/2016-April/010954.html
having messages delayed until untimely, unauthorized edits, and removal of messages. *I think it is absolutely important we avoid censorship in any communication in any form. *
this talking about censorship meanwhile is getting really boring. I know of multiple people and messages that have NOT been delivered on your "alternative mailing-list" fsfellowship.eu by Reinhard Müller, Florian Snow, Christian Kalkhoff, Diogo Constantino and myself minimum.
so better start to lead by example before blaming everyone else or I will stop listening.
And now let's see if this mail is going to be delivered on fsfellowhip.eu : )
Best, Erik
After reading the posts here I’m seriously thinking to stop supporting the FSFE as a „supporter“ and also because of the fellowship discontinuation. In the Future it seems better to support the Free software Foundation in the us which’s more mature.
Hi Karun,
Am 6. Mai 2019 19:11:58 MESZ schrieb Karun kdambiec@fsfe.org:
After reading the posts here I’m seriously thinking to stop supporting the FSFE as a „supporter“ and also because of the fellowship discontinuation. In the Future it seems better to support the Free software Foundation in the us which’s more mature.
Sounds like a kneejerk reaction to me. There is no censorship in the FSFE. The maillinglist is just moderated not censored.
I disagree in some points with the FSFE, because I think we need more transparency etc. But there are many things I agree with e.g. "Public Money public code" etc. I think we need a strong FSFE in Europe to support our community.
So I don't think I have to stop my support because some privileged guys have their egotrips and have to share their Weltschmerz with our community to feel better.
And no, FSF isn't more mature. At least not as long Stallman is in charge.
Regards, Christian
Je lun, 2019-05-06 je 10:58 -0400, Joe Awni skribis:
I think it is absolutely important we avoid censorship in any communication in any form.
Hard skip. This is how you get 4chan; a racist, sexist, discriminatory platform in which only the staunchest of Status Quo Warriors thrive amidst bigoted diatribes.
These people, and I’m assuming you consider them as people, who have censored others with the goal to maintain their status as a flagship organization in Free Software are the ones who actually deserve to be silenced themselves.
So hypocrisy, then?
This is a form of censorship known online as side-scrolling. Where irrelevant topics are inserted and refactored ad-nauseam until exhausting participants’ willingness to contribute to a discussion they view a onerous and unintelligent. Another form of censorship; effectively burying the discussion in irrelevance.
This exact topic, then. I cannot emphasise enough how often this topic has been regurgitated by a select few, making me want to participate publicly less and less.
I'm just quietly participating by writing code and documentation for the FSFE. I haven't faced any censorship while doing so, and I disagree often and visibly. But I do so respectfully, and staff and volunteers of the FSFE have treated me nothing short of excellently during my internship and volunteer work.
That is to say: The FSFE is NOT a censorious organisation, and all the kerfuffle about this topic is immensely unjustified.
I'm just tired of this. Please stop. Nobody is being silenced.
With regards, Carmen
On 06/05/2019 17:58, Joe Awni wrote:
I think it is absolutely important we avoid censorship in any communication in any form.
I think that's something we can all agree. Well, at least on this mailing list ;)
What seems to be the root of disagreement sometime though, is how we define censorship and how do we distinguish it from moderation of people who have repeatedly displayed abusive behavior and chose to personally attack people they disagree with. Tolerating intolerant people [1] eventually leads to censorship, since many people will avoid speaking up if they don't feel safe or be exhausted by the level of toxicity.
I don't speak in any official capacity here, but I personally believe that such people should not be welcome in this community. Furthermore, people who try to keep "equal distances", because they happen to agree with some arguments, all they do is just enabling these type of toxic behavior.