Dear list subscribers,
Many mails in the recent discussions do not add new arguments, but rather fuel a heated meta-discussion about who said what with which intention. Over the course of just one day, the CARE team was alerted to several issues and more and more people, both on the list and in private messages, raised their voices asking to avoid what they see as a debate that is unproductive and unsuited for a mailing list.
To hopefully help calm down the situation, the list moderation team decided to set this list on moderation from now until next Tuesday.
Every message that is on-topic, written in an appropriate tone, and in line with our CoC will be delivered to the list, no matter the opinion.
We apologize for any potential delays in message delivery due to moderation. Thank you very much and looking forward to many fruitful and friendly discussions.
Happy hacking! Florian for the moderators
Florian, With all due respect, you can moderate or do whatever you'd like, nobody is going to stop you.
However, remember the purpose for which FSFE was founded.
It is my personal opinion and based on knowledge/experience of free software community, the way things are right now, the FSFE staff does not comply nor suitable to the scope for which FSFE was born. The real ruler of FSFE is not the internal regulation that a few have designed but the community around it.
This is community space and and organisation like FSFE has no other alternative but to listen to the community and not the internal staff.
The so heated topic you refer to is getting overheated for a reason. For instance, l personally did not agree with Daniel's behaviour but l did find reasonable his requests, where the responses from FSFE was not different than the way he behaved. Actually exceeded. Or should l say there was no proper response?
Now, l have no political ambitions nor a specific reason to react in this manner but, would you mind to think twice why a quiet supporter (member or fellow whatever you'd like to call) like myself all of sudden came out with certain tone?
I am supporter, community evangelist and free software promoter, where l share the values, the philosophy and not only l share but l apply them as well to my daily life, etc.etc.etc.
What l am trying to say here is, by simply moderating or calming down situations like this you are not going to change the facts where FSFE is at the brink of 2 choices, a fork:
1. Do act wisely and go for changes or
2. Keep going the usual way ignoring the facts
We all can guess where FSFE will end up if point 2 chosen. There will also be no reason to keep that E (Europe) anymore if this is the case. Because as European citizen and as free software pioneer l will not allow such organisation to represent me.
Now, l met you personally and had a very quick chat with you and l think you are smarter than many people thinks and l talk with respect here. Therefore l invite you to reflect and meditate on what l just wrote/said.
I said what l have to say it, is up to care team to let this email pass through. Although this won't change my decision and opinion about the current FSFE.
All the best.
Stefan
On Thu, 6 Sep 2018, 12:05 Florian Snow, floriansnow@fsfe.org wrote:
Dear list subscribers,
Many mails in the recent discussions do not add new arguments, but rather fuel a heated meta-discussion about who said what with which intention. Over the course of just one day, the CARE team was alerted to several issues and more and more people, both on the list and in private messages, raised their voices asking to avoid what they see as a debate that is unproductive and unsuited for a mailing list.
To hopefully help calm down the situation, the list moderation team decided to set this list on moderation from now until next Tuesday.
Every message that is on-topic, written in an appropriate tone, and in line with our CoC will be delivered to the list, no matter the opinion.
We apologize for any potential delays in message delivery due to moderation. Thank you very much and looking forward to many fruitful and friendly discussions.
Happy hacking! Florian for the moderators _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other: https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
Hi Stefan,
Stefan Uygur ostendali@gmail.com writes:
I said what l have to say it, is up to care team to let this email pass through. Although this won't change my decision and opinion about the current FSFE.
I accepted your email because the tone was decent. We are not trying to suppress opinions here, we just want a civil tone. So of course your emails goes through. :-)
However, remember the purpose for which FSFE was founded.
It is my personal opinion and based on knowledge/experience of free software community, the way things are right now, the FSFE staff does not comply nor suitable to the scope for which FSFE was born.
I disagree because I think they do help promote Free Software which is the reason for the existence of the FSFE.
The real ruler of FSFE is not the internal regulation that a few have designed but the community around it.
I agree that the community is important, but I am not sure which internal regulation you are talking about that a few have designed. The fact that we find our community important is one of the reasons why we are temporarily moderating this list: Many people on here want to have discussions about Free Software and felt this was increasingly difficult with accusations boiling up about internal organization. Both topics are important, but our decisions was not based on which topics we like or not, it was based on the harsh tone that kept on getting worse.
This is community space and and organisation like FSFE has no other alternative but to listen to the community and not the internal staff.
I think you know that, but just for everyone who reads this: I am not a staffer.
The so heated topic you refer to is getting overheated for a reason. For instance, l personally did not agree with Daniel's behaviour but l did find reasonable his requests,
I agree that some of these requests were reasonable, as do many people in the GA. I don't want to drag this topic out too much, but let me say this much: I was invited to the GA for the very reason that I disagree with other people and look at things from a different perspective. I have disagreed with Matthias, Jonas, Bernhard, and pretty much everyone else in the GA at one point or another. The fact that I was invited to the GA for the very reason that I disagree, perhaps shows you that the conflict here was never about raising issues and wanting to reform; it was about the manner in which it is done. I won't say anything about Daniel's style here because I don't want to heat up the debate again.
where the responses from FSFE was not different than the way he behaved. Actually exceeded. Or should l say there was no proper response?
I disagree. Bernhard spent a lot of time explaining things and he sent one message in the end where perhaps his frustration came through a bit. But he did something that many of us had given up on at that point: Responding to hostile messages with explanations.
I am also not sure who you want a proper response from exactly. As you said, the FSFE is not the staffers, we are an organization largely of volunteers. Bernhard is part of the GA, the highest body of the FSFE and he responded to many questions. I am sure we can ask Matthias as president for a statement, but personally, I think it is best to do that once things have been calm for a few days.
Now, l have no political ambitions nor a specific reason to react in this manner but, would you mind to think twice why a quiet supporter (member or fellow whatever you'd like to call) like myself all of sudden came out with certain tone?
Actually yes, we do, and we do take it seriously. But once a debate heats up too much, it is very hard to have a serious discussion via email. It is incredibly difficult to deescalate via email so that is why we wanted a cool-down first. But I feel strongly about coming back afterwards and looking at what can be suggestions and discussing them.
What l am trying to say here is, by simply moderating or calming down situations like this you are not going to change the facts where FSFE is at the brink of 2 choices, a fork:
Do act wisely and go for changes or
Keep going the usual way ignoring the facts
I agree that we should constantly review processes and structures and reform them where necessary. And we constantly do that. And once things have been calm for a bit here, we will come back and look at suggestions that we can find.
Now, l met you personally and had a very quick chat with you and l think you are smarter than many people thinks and l talk with respect here. Therefore l invite you to reflect and meditate on what l just wrote/said.
I will, of course.
Happy hacking! Florian