Dear Swedish fellows,
in an attempt to make the Free Software Fellowship in Sweden a more democratic and homogeneous community we would like to set up an official online meeting within the Fellowship's Jabber chat room fsfe@conference.jabber.fsfe.org set for the last Friday of the month. This will be a special session only for the Swedish members in order to help us get to know each other better for a more effective cooperation and a more active role of the fellowship in the decision making process. Proposals for items on the agenda and topics to be discussed in the monthly official sessions will be open to the whole community do decide.
The first official meeting will take place on August 31st , at 14.00.
Although the agenda will be decided by everybody and everybody is welcome to propose items for it, we have worked out a preliminary agenda for the first meeting. it is as follows:
Start: 14.00 Everybody can join an hour earlier, at 13.00 for introduction of FSFE and fellows.
First topic: general questions about the jabber chatroom session procedures, decision making process and winter conference.
Second: explanation and call for volunteers for the different teams within the organisation of the winter conference:
- web administration - 2 people - on-site staff - 12 people - graphic design for materials - 3 people - video shooting - 5 people
Third - suggestions and discussions for new topics and speakers for the conference
Fourth - short explanation and general questions on the award
Fifth - discussion on procedures how to make nominations and/or be part of the jury
Sixth - decision on a deadline for submitting nominations
Seventh - open for any questions that might appear from now until the date of the meeting. if you have any please submit them at irina@fsfeurope.org until the end of the working day on August 30th.
If you have trouble with setting up the jabber session, follow this link: https://www.fsfe.org/en/forums/fellowship_smoothers/problem_with_the_jabber_...
We hope you welcome this idea and will become part of a more proactive and organized fellowship.
If you are not an official fellow yet, this can be a very good start up reason to become one.
Best wishes, FSFE
On Aug 21, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Irina Dzhambazova wrote:
We hope you welcome this idea and will become part of a more proactive and organized fellowship.
I most certainly do. This is the type of event that is needed to bring the community together and create greater transparency.
Well done!
Jeremiah Foster jeremiah@jeremiahfoster.com --- Key fingerprint = 9616 2AD3 3AE0 502C BD75 65ED BDC3 0D44 2F5A E672
On 8/21/07, Irina Dzhambazova irina@fsfeurope.org wrote:
Dear Swedish fellows,
in an attempt to make the Free Software Fellowship in Sweden a more democratic and homogeneous community
But not the Free Software community at large? Just the Fellowship?
we would like to set up an
official online meeting within the Fellowship's Jabber chat room fsfe@conference.jabber.fsfe.org set for the last Friday of the month. This will be a special session only for the Swedish members in order to help us get to know each other better for a more effective cooperation and a more active role of the fellowship in the decision making process.
Will there be a session for those of us who want to remain outside the Fellowship?
Proposals for items on the agenda and topics to
be discussed in the monthly official sessions will be open to the whole community do decide.
The first official meeting will take place on August 31st , at 14.00.
Although the agenda will be decided by everybody and everybody is welcome to propose items for it, we have worked out a preliminary agenda for the first meeting. it is as follows:
Start: 14.00 Everybody can join an hour earlier, at 13.00 for introduction of FSFE and fellows.
First topic: general questions about the jabber chatroom session procedures, decision making process and winter conference.
Second: explanation and call for volunteers for the different teams within the organisation of the winter conference:
- web administration - 2 people
Count me in! I would like to volunteer for the web site.
- on-site staff - 12 people
I am happy to help out here as well.
- graphic design for materials - 3 people
- video shooting - 5 people
Jeremiah
Jeremiah Foster wrote:
On 8/21/07, Irina Dzhambazova irina@fsfeurope.org wrote:
Dear Swedish fellows,
in an attempt to make the Free Software Fellowship in Sweden a more democratic and homogeneous community
But not the Free Software community at large? Just the Fellowship?
I am a bit confused here. We cannot do anything directly about the Free Software community at large, because they are free to do what they want. And should be so. I'd say that the Free Software community at large is democratic in its nature as far as software goes. This is so since we have GPL and people can do what they want with the software (as long as they don't take away the four freedoms). What FSFE can do for the FS community is to work for the sake of Free Software, and this is what we do. Every day. So I hope (and believe) that the FS community think that we represent them.
Perhaps you mean that FSFE needs to do an attempt to do the above instead of "Free Software community at large"? If that's the case, then I've heard complaints about the openess and transparency of FSFE before. Is that what you mean?
Will there be a session for those of us who want to remain outside the Fellowship?
We will have to find a new chat room somewhere. But that should be a really easy task.
/hesa
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Henrik Sandklef wrote:
What would you prefer:
- jabber chat room
- mailing list
- telephone meetings
Why not IRC? :-)
- -- .''`. Torbjörn Svensson, azoff (at) se (dot) linux (dot) org : :' : 7EB9 2DC5 61AE DAB5 7099 BAC6 798E E39A DBDB 0CFD `. `' http://www.azoff.se | http://dev.azoff.se `-- http://se.linux.org
ons 2007-08-22 klockan 16:56 +0200 skrev Torbjörn Svensson:
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Henrik Sandklef wrote:
What would you prefer:
- jabber chat room
- mailing list
- telephone meetings
Why not IRC? :-)
Yeah, I would be very comfortable with IRC as well. But of course, Jabber is OK.
Can you set up such a meeting?
/hesa
Torbjörn Svensson wrote:
- gpg control packet
Henrik Sandklef wrote:
What would you prefer:
- jabber chat room
- mailing list
- telephone meetings
Why not IRC? :-)
_______________________________________________ Fsfe-se mailing list Fsfe-se@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/fsfe-se
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Henrik Sandklef wrote:
Can you set up such a meeting?
Anyone can do it. Just decide what irc-network to use and then join a channel there and your done (more or less).
- -- .''`. Torbjörn Svensson, azoff (at) se (dot) linux (dot) org : :' : 7EB9 2DC5 61AE DAB5 7099 BAC6 798E E39A DBDB 0CFD `. `' http://www.azoff.se | http://dev.azoff.se `-- http://se.linux.org
Torbjörn Svensson wrote:
Anyone can do it.
Sorry, I wasn't clear :(
Just decide what irc-network to use and then join a channel there and your done (more or less).
Can you prepare the steps above in time for the meeting and send info to this list on how to join?
Date/time for the meeting: August 31st , at 14.00.
/hesa
On Sunday 26 August 2007 14:31:08 Henrik Sandklef wrote:
Torbjörn Svensson wrote:
Anyone can do it.
Sorry, I wasn't clear :(
Just decide what irc-network to use and then join a channel there and your done (more or less).
Can you prepare the steps above in time for the meeting and send info to this list on how to join?
Date/time for the meeting: August 31st , at 14.00.
/hesa
Btw, is it technically possbile to let non-fellows with other jabber accounts into the planned jabber chat? Wouldn't that be the easiest solution if the intention is to open up the meeting with minimal changes to the original plans?
(I use Jabber daily but only for one to one IM so I have no idea)
/Kalle
On Sunday 26 August 2007 14:25:14 Torbjörn Svensson wrote:
Henrik Sandklef wrote:
Can you set up such a meeting?
Anyone can do it. Just decide what irc-network to use and then join a channel there and your done (more or less).
#fsfe-se var "ledigt", inte så förvånande kanske ;) på Freenode (irc.freenode.net)
Jag testar just nu men det är ensamt. ;-)
/Kalle
On Aug 22, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Henrik Sandklef wrote:
Jeremiah Foster wrote:
On 8/21/07, Irina Dzhambazova irina@fsfeurope.org wrote:
Dear Swedish fellows,
in an attempt to make the Free Software Fellowship in Sweden a more democratic and homogeneous community
But not the Free Software community at large? Just the Fellowship?
I am a bit confused here. We cannot do anything directly about the Free Software community at large, because they are free to do what they want. And should be so. I'd say that the Free Software community at large is democratic in its nature as far as software goes. This is so since we have GPL and people can do what they want with the software (as long as they don't take away the four freedoms). What FSFE can do for the FS community is to work for the sake of Free Software, and this is what we do. Every day. So I hope (and believe) that the FS community think that we represent them.
Perhaps you mean that FSFE needs to do an attempt to do the above instead of "Free Software community at large"? If that's the case, then I've heard complaints about the openess and transparency of FSFE before. Is that what you mean?
In general the point of democracy is that _everyone_ has a vote. When just the party members have a vote, and you can think of the Fellowship as a political party, you get oligarchy. It seems hypocritical that a political action group (the FSFE) who lobbies on behalf of the people of Europe is steered by an unelected board and that only Fellows can interact via Jabber with the FSFE.
Here art two easy steps toward transparency and openness:
1. Let anyone who wants to participate in the FSFE Jabber meetings - don't limit them to Fellows. 2. Describe the process by which the leadership of the FSFE gets elected
Until things like this are done, the FSFE will continue to receive criticism for its lack of openness. And not just from me. :)
Will there be a session for those of us who want to remain outside the Fellowship?
We will have to find a new chat room somewhere. But that should be a really easy task.
Not necessary since there are already numerous IRC channels and the like.
Jeremiah
Jeremiah Foster wrote:
On Aug 22, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Henrik Sandklef wrote:
In general the point of democracy is that _everyone_ has a vote. When just the party members have a vote, and you can think of the Fellowship as a political party, you get oligarchy. It seems hypocritical that a political action group (the FSFE) who lobbies on behalf of the people of Europe is steered by an unelected board and that only Fellows can interact via Jabber with the FSFE.
OK, we also read emails every now and then ;)
Anyone can interact with FSFE, e g vie e-mail*. If everyone should have a vote then we can easily be mislead by another organisation that might have a different agenda than ours. Given that, it's not strange that only members have a vote.
Everyone can become a fellow. Everyone can become a member (see below) and everyone can become president.
*) For swedish issues: sweden@fsfeurope.org For European issues: team@fsfeurope.org
Here art two easy steps toward transparency and openness:
- Let anyone who wants to participate in the FSFE Jabber meetings -
don't limit them to Fellows.
So far we haven't had any jabber meeting. Only physical meetings here in Gothenburg.
Every (physical) meeting so far have been open and the invitations are always sent on this ML. You've been with us a couple of times.
- Describe the process by which the leadership of the FSFE gets
elected
Can anyone vote? - The members of the General Assembly votes
A note on bootstrapping, How was the first General assembly elected then? It wasn't. The first General Assembly started the org.
Can anyone become a member of GA? Yes. The people in the GA are usually the ones being the moset active in the FSFE Team.
Can anyone join the Team? Yes. The process here is basically the same as for say companies, organisations (even Debian as you've had as an example before), agencies ... You have to have some proven skills (social, legal, hacking, political ....) and there has to be a need for it as well.
The steps above prevents take-overs better.
Until things like this are done, the FSFE will continue to receive criticism for its lack of openness. And not just from me. :)
Some of the work we do and the people/project/org(...) who assign it to us do demand the setup we have.
On Aug 22, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Henrik Sandklef wrote:
In general the point of democracy is that _everyone_ has a vote. When just the party members have a vote, and you can think of the Fellowship as a political party, you get oligarchy. It seems hypocritical that a political action group (the FSFE) who lobbies on behalf of the people of Europe is steered by an unelected board and that only Fellows can interact via Jabber with the FSFE.
OK, we also read emails every now and then ;)
Anyone can interact with FSFE, e g vie e-mail*. If everyone should have a vote then we can easily be mislead by another organisation that might have a different agenda than ours. Given that, it's not strange that only members have a vote.
True there is always the threat of some outside organization influencing the outcome of decisions inside FSFE, but that does not mean decisions cannot be made with public input.
Everyone can become a fellow. Everyone can become a member (see below) and everyone can become president.
*) For swedish issues: sweden@fsfeurope.org
Is this an alias for fsfe-se@fsfeurope.org or a separate email list?
For European issues: team@fsfeurope.org
Here art two easy steps toward transparency and openness:
- Let anyone who wants to participate in the FSFE Jabber meetings -
don't limit them to Fellows.
So far we haven't had any jabber meeting. Only physical meetings here in Gothenburg.
Every (physical) meeting so far have been open and the invitations are always sent on this ML. You've been with us a couple of times.
I participate in those projects that are open and advance human rights. I believe debian is one of those projects, that is why I am on the perl-packaging team. I will continue to participate with the FSFE but I have never seen a Fellow of the FSFE at any FSFE meeting (side from yourself) and Jonas. Keeping the meetings open for all will allow for;
1. A larger community 2. Greater openness
- Describe the process by which the leadership of the FSFE gets
elected
Can anyone vote?
The members of the General Assembly votes
A note on bootstrapping, How was the first General assembly elected then? It wasn't. The first General Assembly started the org.
Can anyone become a member of GA? Yes. The people in the GA are usually the ones being the moset active in the FSFE Team.
Has anyone moved from being just a Fellow to being a member of the GA within the last two years?
Can anyone join the Team? Yes. The process here is basically the same as for say companies, organisations (even Debian as you've had as an example before), agencies ... You have to have some proven skills (social, legal, hacking, political ....) and there has to be a need for it as well.
Actually debian is quite different. Debian has a gigantic set of policy documents which get voted on _before_ they come into effect. FSFE does not have this. Debian removes it leadership and elects a new leader every year. FSFE does not do this. Debian is free as in beer to use and join. FSFE is free as in freedom, not free as in beer. Money blocks those who do not have the means from joining, therefor FSFE is not open to everyone, just those who can afford it. Debian is completely transparent - every process, every package, every decision gets made in public with a great deal of debate. That is why debian's founder calls it "process run amok." But that process is democratic. Where is the debate in the FSFE? Where are the voices for and against? Where are the emails to the mailing list?
The steps above prevents take-overs better.
Maybe, maybe not. Transparency can work as a brake on the aspirations of a FSFE board that makes decisions that the Fellows do not approve of, someone can take over the FSFE from the inside as well. In fact, I would make the argument that the FSFE is just a branch of the FSF and takes its marching orders from Boston.
Until things like this are done, the FSFE will continue to receive criticism for its lack of openness. And not just from me. :)
Some of the work we do and the people/project/org(...) who assign it to us do demand the setup we have.
This concerns me. If the groups you work with do not expect the FSFE to be a democratic, open community and board, then what types of people/project/org are you working with? If it is so secret you have to hide it from Fellows and the public alike, you run the risk of destroying the FSFE if the Fellows leave en masse after being disillusioned by your partners. Or you will injure the public reputation of your partners if someone finds out that they are working with you, thereby endangering their relationship with the FSFE and ending potentially important projects. Either way, if it appears that the FSFE is keeping secrets, it will seriously damage the reputation of the FSFE and its credibility. Don't you agree?
Jeremiah
Jeremiah Foster wrote:
On Aug 22, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Henrik Sandklef wrote: Is this an alias for fsfe-se@fsfeurope.org or a separate email list?
http://www.sweden.fsfeurope.org/contact/contact.en.html
I participate in those projects that are open and advance human rights. I believe debian is one of those projects, that is why I am on the perl-packaging team.
Can anyone without a proven skill get inside Debian? Can Mr Waters, who has no programming skills and knows nothing about licensing or computers, become a Debian core member?
I will continue to participate with the FSFE but I have never seen a Fellow of the FSFE at any FSFE meeting (side from yourself) and Jonas.
I have.
How do you tell a fellow from a non-fellow?
Do you really want us to make difference between fellows and non-fellows during the meetings?
Keeping the meetings open for all will allow for;
- A larger community
- Greater openness
Again, all (100%) meetings have been public.
Actually debian is quite different. Debian has a gigantic set of policy documents which get voted on _before_ they come into effect. FSFE does not have this. Debian removes it leadership and elects a new leader every year. FSFE does not do this.
We elected president this year.
Debian is free as in beer to use and join.
OK, I didn't know that. I thought it was hard to get in and do for example work on their softwares
FSFE is free as in freedom, not free as in beer. Money blocks those who do not have the means from joining,
Fellowship is 'blocked' by 60 euros. FSFE is free.
There are other ways of influencing FSFE. Emails are one them. Attending meetings another. Helping out with work yet another. Sponsorship even yet another.
therefor FSFE is not open to everyone, just those who can afford it.
No, the fellowship costs 60 euros.
FSFE is free to join, given that the person have the skills needed.
FSFE is not closed to everyone who can't afford. We have numerous volunteers who do lots of work.
Debian is completely transparent - every process, every package, every decision gets made in public with a great deal of debate. That is why debian's founder calls it "process run amok." But that process is democratic.
Where is the debate in the FSFE? Where are the voices for and against?
For and against what?
Discussions are made here: http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/discussion/
Where are the emails to the mailing list?
I don't follow! Can you try again.
The steps above prevents take-overs better.
Maybe, maybe not. Transparency can work as a brake on the aspirations of a FSFE board that makes decisions that the Fellows do not approve of, someone can take over the FSFE from the inside as well. In fact, I would make the argument that the FSFE is just a branch of the FSF and takes its marching orders from Boston.
Those are strong words. You are, of course, free to make that argument.
All the FSFs out there (Latin America, India, North America, Europe) are different organisations that, of course, synchronise every now and then. We all share the same goals.
have to leave now, i'll be back
On Aug 22, 2007, at 5:15 PM, Henrik Sandklef wrote:
Jeremiah Foster wrote:
On Aug 22, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Henrik Sandklef wrote: Is this an alias for fsfe-se@fsfeurope.org or a separate email list?
http://www.sweden.fsfeurope.org/contact/contact.en.html
I participate in those projects that are open and advance human rights. I believe debian is one of those projects, that is why I am on the perl-packaging team.
Can anyone without a proven skill get inside Debian?
No.
Can Mr Waters, who has no programming skills and knows nothing about licensing or computers, become a Debian core member?
Well, if Mr. Waters has done a lot for debian, yes. Maybe he has written documentation or provided infrastructure, or represented debian in the press or at conferences, or even organized a debian conference. But it is unlikely that someone like that would get involved in the first place, which I think is your point.
I will continue to participate with the FSFE but I have never seen a Fellow of the FSFE at any FSFE meeting (side from yourself) and Jonas.
I have.
How do you tell a fellow from a non-fellow?
Do you really want us to make difference between fellows and non- fellows during the meetings?
I cannot tell the difference between a fellow and a non-fellow at the meetings, or anywhere else. The meetings have always been open to all. I want them to remain that way, including Jabber.
Keeping the meetings open for all will allow for;
- A larger community
- Greater openness
Again, all (100%) meetings have been public.
But now they will just be for fellows, at least on Jabber. Why this change in policy?
Actually debian is quite different. Debian has a gigantic set of policy documents which get voted on _before_ they come into effect. FSFE does not have this. Debian removes it leadership and elects a new leader every year. FSFE does not do this.
We elected president this year.
I stand corrected.
Debian is free as in beer to use and join.
OK, I didn't know that. I thought it was hard to get in and do for example work on their softwares
Yes of course, but still, if you have the competency, you get in without having to pay money.
FSFE is free as in freedom, not free as in beer. Money blocks those who do not have the means from joining,
Fellowship is 'blocked' by 60 euros. FSFE is free.
But it is the fellowship that gets the special perks, the meetings on Jabber for example. So you cannot get 'real' membership in the FSFE without paying.
There are other ways of influencing FSFE. Emails are one them. Attending meetings another. Helping out with work yet another. Sponsorship even yet another.
I have done all of those things, yet cannot participate in the Jabber meeting.
therefor FSFE is not open to everyone, just those who can afford it.
No, the fellowship costs 60 euros.
FSFE is free to join, given that the person have the skills needed.
FSFE is not closed to everyone who can't afford. We have numerous volunteers who do lots of work.
Debian is completely transparent - every process, every package, every decision gets made in public with a great deal of debate. That is why debian's founder calls it "process run amok." But that process is democratic.
Where is the debate in the FSFE? Where are the voices for and against?
For and against what?
Hard to say really, I was trying to be hypothetical. I have a hard time coming up with a concrete answer.
Discussions are made here: http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/ discussion/
Where are the emails to the mailing list?
I don't follow! Can you try again.
The steps above prevents take-overs better.
Maybe, maybe not. Transparency can work as a brake on the aspirations of a FSFE board that makes decisions that the Fellows do not approve of, someone can take over the FSFE from the inside as well. In fact, I would make the argument that the FSFE is just a branch of the FSF and takes its marching orders from Boston.
Those are strong words. You are, of course, free to make that argument.
I agree, they are strong words, but this is the appearance from the outside.
Lets face it, Richard Stallman has a strong personality - I would argue that you would have to have a strong personality to do what he does. But there are other voices in the Free Software world, Linus Torvalds for example, and perhaps the FSFE might act as a counter weight to some of the more extreme, and damaging, opinions and policies from Mr. Stallman.
All the FSFs out there (Latin America, India, North America, Europe) are different organisations that, of course, synchronise every now and then. We all share the same goals.
But different how? Where are the concrete differences? Can the FSFE make a decision that contradicts the FSF? What if the FSFE hired Eben Moglen for example?
have to leave now, i'll be back
I look forward to it!
Jeremiah
Sicknes at home. Short answers, will do my best
Jeremiah Foster skrev:
On Aug 22, 2007, at 5:15 PM, Henrik Sandklef wrote:
Can anyone without a proven skill get inside Debian?
No.
Same for FSFE.
conference. But it is unlikely that someone like that would get involved in the first place, which I think is your point.
So you likely have to have proven skills.
Same for FSFE.
I will continue to participate with the FSFE but I have never seen a Fellow of the FSFE at any FSFE meeting (side from yourself) and Jonas.
I have.
snip
I cannot tell the difference between a fellow and a non-fellow at the meetings, or anywhere else.
OK. How did you know then? :)
The meetings have always been open to all. I want them to remain that way, including Jabber.
All meetings will remain as they are.
But now they will just be for fellows, at least on Jabber.Why this change in policy?
We're looking at other ways for this meeting. You just agreed to using IRC on another channel.
Debian is free as in beer to use and join.
OK, I didn't know that. I thought it was hard to get in and do for example work on their softwares
Yes of course, but still, if you have the competency, you get in without having to pay money.
To join the Fellowship you have to pay.
To join FSFE you don't have to pay.
But it is the fellowship that gets the special perks, the meetings on Jabber for example. So you cannot get 'real' membership in the FSFE without paying.
To join the Fellowship you have to pay.
To join FSFE you don't have to pay.
There are other ways of influencing FSFE. Emails are one them. Attending meetings another. Helping out with work yet another. Sponsorship even yet another.
I have done all of those things, yet cannot participate in the Jabber meeting.
Fellowship meetings are for fellows.
If you want to influence FSFE* you are free to use phone, email.
*) you are influencing FSFE right now.
In fact, I would make the argument that the FSFE is just a branch of the FSF and takes its marching orders from Boston.
Those are strong words. You are, of course, free to make that argument.
I agree, they are strong words, but this is the appearance from the outside.
I think that this is the way you see it, not necessarily "the appearance".
Lets face it, Richard Stallman has a strong personality - I would argue that you would have to have a strong personality to do what he does. But there are other voices in the Free Software world, Linus Torvalds for example, and perhaps the FSFE might act as a counter weight to some of the more extreme, and damaging, opinions and policies from Mr. Stallman.
FSFE works to promote Free Software.
All the FSFs out there (Latin America, India, North America, Europe) are different organisations that, of course, synchronise every now and then. We all share the same goals.
But different how? Where are the concrete differences?
Different legal bodies. Different boards. ... different continents where we do our work.
Can the FSFE make a decision that contradicts the FSF?
Yes, but i'd prefere to sync....
What if the FSFE hired Eben Moglen for example?
We can hire the people we'd like to work with.
/hesa