On Fri, 2011-01-21 at 11:35 +0100, Maelle Costa wrote:
Hi Rikard, Hi all !
Hi all (added Stian Rødven Eide to the CC-list, as Stian has worked with the PDF readers project and also knows about creating PDF forms using free software)!
[problem description]
http://polisen.se/Vastra_Gotaland/sv/Service/Blanketter/Tillstand/Vanliga-bl...
A developper from Evince helped us determine the source of the problem :
- the PDF is specially crafted so you won't be able to see it unless you
are using Adobe reader and a new version...
- the institution seems to be using Adobe Live Cycling to create the
PDFs.
[my contacting the Swedish police on their PDF forms]
So, first, Rikard, we would need to know exactly what you explained to them, so that we know what arguments are not convincing for them.
It's not so much that they weren't convinced by my arguments, they rather didn't understand them and thought just using PDF was already the answer to my problems. What I told them was that the version of PDF that their documents had, was forcing me to install one particular proprietary reader (AA Reader). I also added my views on why this was bad.
From what I see so far, *We need to explain them* :
- PDF is an Open Standard [1]
- Open Standard are precisely here to make sure several programs from
several developpers / companies can open then, i.e. to make sure to ensure *independence from vendor*, *maximal accessibility for the public* and *compatibility*.
- In creating / editing PDFs that can only be open by AA Reader deprives
the Standard from its advantages, but worse, it forces people into using one program, into buying it from one vendor (being locked with him), and the fact that it is free of charge is no parameter here.
- They could improve their accessibility in creating forms that are not
crafted, that can be open by any program designed to open the standard.
- we can help them to figure out how to do that
Yes, we need to explain to them (I only mailed with one individual there, so I'm not sure how the rest of the Police understands this matter) the difference between using "PDF" and "PDF that requires exclusively AA Reader" for file formats.
*we should not say* :
- The way they create their form is wrong -> they would probably react
not be very listening if we start telling them they are wrong, we should rather tell them they can be better.
We could start by complementing them on the choice of PDF before other formats around. Then inform them that PDFs can be different depending on what you use to create them with. Additionally we could say that we assume that their aim is to be open and accessible and that they can be even more so, should they create PDFs in a way that makes them more universally editable.
*What we need to search in preparation*:
- Free Software PDF readers are not very performant with forms. They can
usually open them, but not save the information entered, and not perform a check-up routine. We need to determine which software are good at *editing* PDFs that can be open by all readers. It would be better here to have Free Software to suggest, in case they aren't, I guess it would already be an improvement to have institutions publish forms that can be open by Free Software even if they are created by a proprietary one...
- Rikard suggested there were possibilities to create forms with Open
Office or libre Office. Nico here tested Open Office, it worked for what concerns the form functions, but we couldn't figure out how to design the layout we wanted for the PDF... Some research here would be good before recommending these options
- other options would be good.
Stian perhaps has some input here?
- @Rikard : there is the possibility to create a wiki page on FSFE's
wiki (wiki.fsfe.org). If you don't have an account there, either one of the Fellows in Sweden could help you create the list of institutions, or you can create a guest account [2].
I'll check that out, thanks! If anyone beats me to it, in creating a sub page for this subset of the bugs involving PDF use, please let me know the URL to it!
*Do you have other ideas, comments on how we can procede here*?
I think putting together a guide on how to provide Forms that can be edited by other software than AAR is a great step.
Is using editable documents really a good idea for forms at all, btw? Woudn't it be better to have forms as part of their website? Then they could focus on following web standards in order to make the site as a whole accessible... Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I kind of like to print out forms and fill them in using a pen ;-) And I'm cynical enough to advice against interactive forms (having fields and tab order and input validation) as a file format for *text* since I'm convinced it will create interoperability and compatibility problems when accessed using different "readers" or even different versions of the same reader.
The fact we refer to them as "readers" implies somehow that they are primarily meant to read stuff and not for editing and saving stuff ;-).
But I'm not sure at all that this is relevant here. I just wanted to share my thoughts, because actually I reacted to the fact that you could download a "form" meant to be filled in using a computer. It may have security implications as well as the compatibility issues, I thought.
What do you all think about this? Should forms be part of a portable document format? If so, why and how should this be implemented?
Thanks for your involvement here,
My pleasure! Let's keep keeping in touch :)
Regards
Maëlle
Regards
Rikard