Hi all,
I am in contact with Peter since a while because of the Windows Tax. Can you help him to find a good lawyer in Sweden to try to get a refund for the Microsoft Windows Tax?
* Peter peter@lohmanders.se [2012-09-03 10:41:39 +0200]:
Hey there, Matthias!
I have all but given up. I have contacted HP, Dell, ASUS, Gigabyte, Clevo and Intel and requested information on how to buy their hardware without preinstalled software. I asked about their laptops, tablets and cellphones. Here is what I found:
- HP could not care less.
- Dell offers low-budget, older computers with FreeDOS. Furthermore, Dell US has been prohibited by Dell Sweden to export their Ubuntu-series laptops. I asked a Dell Sweden representative on the phone "Is it because Microsoft sponsors you?", he replied "I cannot answer that, but it sounds a reasonable assumption".
- ASUS would maybe be willing to sell clean slate hardware if the quantity was high enough, but this would only be for the laptops. They promptly refuse to sell tablets or cellphones without preinstalled systems.
- Gigabyte recommended I buy hardware with Android since they don't charge extra for it. Regarding laptops, they simply refused.
- Clevo has resellers that offer the hardware without software. Unfortunately, Clevo's power management functions is incompatible with ACPI and the current Linux and BSD-drivers. I asked them for the specs to write my own PM-module several times, they have not replied.
- Intel replied saying they only sell laptop hardware to really big vendors and their mobile platform is currently licensed to specific vendors.
It should be stated that HP, Dell, ASUS and Gigabyte are ALL sponsored by Microsoft. Their websites clearly state they recommend Microsoft Windows 7, Microsoft Internet Explorer 9 and Microsoft Office as additional software.
It is also painfully obvious, that on a $400 laptop with Microsoft Windows 7 and Microsoft Office preinstalled, the kickback rate is almost 1/4 the entire sale. I understand these companies from a business perspective, they make peanuts on the hardware margins, but can make a killing selling licenses.
Another obvious thing is the situation: Microsoft has bought out every hardware vendor making it impossible for competing OS UNLESS they have the million dollar budget to sway the vendors to your favour. Money talks, bullshit walks.
How this isn't a clear case antitrust or unfair business practices is beyond me. Allright, antitrust is a bit tricky, but what Microsoft is currently doing is almost exactly what the EU directives describe and prohibit.
It could be said, about laptops, that you can always buy Apple or Clevo (who do offer OEM-free hardware). That is, there is viable competition to the Microsoft-funded vendors. However, when it comes to tablets and cellphones (i.e the ARM architecture, basically) there is a CLEAR case of unfair business practices. How is this acceptable?
Regarding FSFE's Windows Tax Refund, it is not enough. We need a clear, legal ruling that prohibits vendors from adding non-free software. Not sure exactly how to stipulate this...
Another issue is the fact that vendors can say "well, just return the computer and you'll be refunded" giving the customer the choice "our way or the highway". Again, it seems to be a case of unfair business practices.
With a legal ruling the hw vendors are either forced to refund ONLY the software or (hopefully) be legally obliged to officially offer their hardware without bundled software.
Phew. Long mail. :)
Have a good one guys, I'm having problems finding lawyers in Sweden that actually know anything about this, so I'm guesstimating this might take longer than I anticipated/hoped.
Best regards, Peter
Regards, Matthias
-Peter
Hi all,
I can imagine that this would be right up the alley of either Mathias or Kalle. It's not clear to me though what is expected: does this require some legal analysis of the situation in Sweden or is the situation clear enough that it's just a matter of composing and sending some relevant letters, for instance?
For Mathias, I think we can assume that he doesn't have enough time. He would likely be available for a phone call or meeting with Peter so sort through the legalities involved, but I wouldn't count on him for any commitment beyond that.
For Kalle, I'm sure he would be game for pretty much anything now that he has some more free time on his hands, but I doubt that he would be able to do it completely pro-bono.
Jonas
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Matthias Kirschner mk@fsfe.org wrote:
Hi all,
I am in contact with Peter since a while because of the Windows Tax. Can you help him to find a good lawyer in Sweden to try to get a refund for the Microsoft Windows Tax?
- Peter peter@lohmanders.se [2012-09-03 10:41:39 +0200]:
Hey there, Matthias!
I have all but given up. I have contacted HP, Dell, ASUS, Gigabyte, Clevo and Intel and requested information on how to buy their hardware without preinstalled software. I asked about their laptops, tablets and
cellphones.
Here is what I found:
- HP could not care less.
- Dell offers low-budget, older computers with FreeDOS. Furthermore,
Dell US
has been prohibited by Dell Sweden to export their Ubuntu-series
laptops.
I asked a Dell Sweden representative on the phone "Is it because
Microsoft
sponsors you?", he replied "I cannot answer that, but it sounds a reasonable assumption".
- ASUS would maybe be willing to sell clean slate hardware if the
quantity
was high enough, but this would only be for the laptops. They promptly refuse to sell tablets or cellphones without preinstalled systems.
- Gigabyte recommended I buy hardware with Android since they don't
charge
extra for it. Regarding laptops, they simply refused.
- Clevo has resellers that offer the hardware without software. Unfortunately, Clevo's power management functions is incompatible with ACPI and the current Linux and BSD-drivers. I asked them for the specs
to
write my own PM-module several times, they have not replied.
- Intel replied saying they only sell laptop hardware to really big
vendors
and their mobile platform is currently licensed to specific vendors.
It should be stated that HP, Dell, ASUS and Gigabyte are ALL sponsored by Microsoft. Their websites clearly state they recommend Microsoft Windows
7,
Microsoft Internet Explorer 9 and Microsoft Office as additional
software.
It is also painfully obvious, that on a $400 laptop with Microsoft
Windows 7
and Microsoft Office preinstalled, the kickback rate is almost 1/4 the entire sale. I understand these companies from a business perspective,
they
make peanuts on the hardware margins, but can make a killing selling licenses.
Another obvious thing is the situation: Microsoft has bought out every hardware vendor making it impossible for competing OS UNLESS they have
the
million dollar budget to sway the vendors to your favour. Money talks, bullshit walks.
How this isn't a clear case antitrust or unfair business practices is
beyond
me. Allright, antitrust is a bit tricky, but what Microsoft is currently doing is almost exactly what the EU directives describe and prohibit.
It could be said, about laptops, that you can always buy Apple or Clevo
(who
do offer OEM-free hardware). That is, there is viable competition to the Microsoft-funded vendors. However, when it comes to tablets and cellphones (i.e the ARM
architecture,
basically) there is a CLEAR case of unfair business practices. How is
this
acceptable?
Regarding FSFE's Windows Tax Refund, it is not enough. We need a clear, legal ruling that prohibits vendors from adding non-free software. Not
sure
exactly how to stipulate this...
Another issue is the fact that vendors can say "well, just return the computer and you'll be refunded" giving the customer the choice "our way
or
the highway". Again, it seems to be a case of unfair business practices.
With a legal ruling the hw vendors are either forced to refund ONLY the software or (hopefully) be legally obliged to officially offer their hardware without bundled software.
Phew. Long mail. :)
Have a good one guys, I'm having problems finding lawyers in Sweden that actually know anything about this, so I'm guesstimating this might take longer than I anticipated/hoped.
Best regards, Peter
Regards, Matthias
-- Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t +49-30-27595290 +49-1577-1780003 Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk) - Contact (fsfe.org/about/kirschner) Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk _______________________________________________ Sweden mailing list Sweden@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/sweden
hi Jonas,
as background
* Jonas Öberg jonas@ffkp.se [2012-09-04 13:12:09 +0200]:
For Kalle, I'm sure he would be game for pretty much anything now that he has some more free time on his hands, but I doubt that he would be able to do it completely pro-bono.
I did not understand that it should be pro-bono. Peter seems to be willing to pay and fight this one through.
Another suggestion I received:
Hans Nicander hans.nicander@nicander.se
Can you follow up with Peter on this? If you need assistence, let me know.
Thanks, Matthias